What are the key credentials to get into the HALL OF FAME?

[londoner]

What are the key credentials to get into the HALL OF FAME?

 

 

There is a lot to debate on the subject of who deserves a place in the International Boxing Hall Of Fame. I try to have a conservative view of those allowed in as i don’t like seeing the achievements of early Hall of Famers being devalued by allowing new HOFers in who haven’t achieved anywhere near as much. I mean i understand there will only ever be one Sugar Ray Robinson and there will only be a handful of Julio Cesar Chavez's and Leonard's. So anyone who gets in since them are going to find it hard to match up. And i don’t think we should hold that against them. So what if Pacquiao doesn’t rate as high as Duran or Robinson? Should he not be allowed in? Of course he should. And so what if Roy Jones jr has lost so many fights in the last 6 years. Should we not allow him in because he has refused to retire sooner? Of course we should let him in. And so what if Floyd Mayweather hasn’t beaten all the best guys he could have, should he be refused entry? No. Because he is a 5 weight champion nonetheless and that is a big achievement in itself.

 

 

I understand boxing is very much down to personal interpretation as opposed to statistics. For example, in soccer we can tell who the best strikers are by how many goals they score. A guy like Lionel Messi who scores 40 goals in a season is obviously better than a guy who scores just 10. Add to that his skill and teamwork and we know he is a great player. In boxing we see many fights where the fighter who is the aggressor and throws more punches can lose a bout if the judges believe the opponent LANDED more or threw the most important punches. It is down to interpretation much of the time as opposed to statistics.

 

 

But for me, i have a theory that we can look into entry to the HOF in a manner whereby we evaluate the boxer's main attributes and credentials and see if he/she matches up into one of the following categories:

 

 

- ABSOLUTE GREATNESS: Sugar Ray Robinson, for example, beat the lot. He fought everybody and beat them all. Even those he lost to, he came back to beat. He had an amazing style, possibly had the best boxing style of all time. He beat ten hall of famers, beat many of them several times. He fought Jake LaMotta six times. Many fighters didn’t even get in the ring with one hall of famer. SRR got in the ring with one hall of famer six times! He also never got KO'd in his amateur or pro career. That is special.

 

 

- LONG REIGNING CHAMP: A guy who is a long reigning World champion. Might not have beaten all of the best fighters. Might not even have beaten a HOFer. But if you’re an undefeated World champion for 10 years fighting GOOD opposition you’re hardly a total bum. Examples: Joe Calzaghe, Dariusz Michalczewski, Vitali Klitchsko.

 

 

- LONG REIGNING MEGA CHAMP: The difference with this guy and a “long reigning champ” is that this champion beat a lot of HOFers and held more than one title during his reign. A fighter like this around today would be compared to a champion of the past. Examples: Joe Louis, Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Larry Holmes.

 

 

- WORLD CHAMPION WARRIOR: This guy is very often Mexican. Has fought pretty much everybody and beaten a lot of them (or most). Has loads of HOFers on his record. Has been World champion on several occasions but perhaps not always long reigning. He has fought everyone in his weight classes. Will be remembered for his style as much as his World titles. Examples: Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Johnny Tapia, Juan Manuel Marquez.

 

 

- ONE WEIGHT WARRIOR: This guy might only have been World champion in one weight but he was a great champion at that weight and fought most of the best within the weight class. Examples: Aaron Pryor, Kostya tszyu, Lennox Lewis.

 

 

- TWO WEIGHT WORLD CHAMPION: Champion at two different weights. For example, Evander Holyfield is the first guy to be World champion at Cruiserweight and HW. He made use of the two weights he fought in. This guy is not to be confused with Herbie Hide, Ricky Hatton or Arturo Gatti. Those guys used what they had and were talented and entertaining but they weren’t World beaters. This guy could beat some of the best. Examples: Ricardo Lopez, Evander Holyfield, Carlos Zarate, Michael Spinks.

 

 

- THREE WEIGHT WORLD CHAMPION: This guy might not be World champion in four or more weights but is World champion in several weights nonetheless. If you’re a genuine World champion in more than one weight you’re going to be good. Examples: Pernell Whitaker, Felix Trinidad, Alexis Arguello.

 

 

- FOUR OR MORE WEIGHT CHAMPION: A guy who might not have beaten the lot. Might not have even beaten a HOFer. But has fought in four or more weight classes and been World champion in them all. That's some accomplishment. Examples: Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather jr, Oscar de la Hoya, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran.

 

 

- LONGEVITY: A guy who makes his debut in 1980 and is still going strong in 2000. He doesn’t just fight bums during that time either. This guy must have a few champions on his list but he doesn’t necessarily have to be a World champion himself as long as he is beating some great fighters. If the guy doesn’t beat enough greats he is Glencoffe Johnson or Montell Griffin. Examples: Jack Johnson, George Foreman, Max Schmeling.

 

 

- FIGHTER OF HALL OF FAMERS: Fights a whole list of HOFers. Due to such a difficult level of opposition the guy is going to lose. It’s natural. If you fight nothing but the best, you will lose. But this guy wins as well. Examples: Kid Gavilan, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta.

 

 

- STYLE KING: This guy makes it in with style/ability alone. He might never have become World champion or did so only a couple of times. He gets in because his style and willingness to compete means it is impossible to keep him out. Not to be confused with Billy Fox. That guy ko’d everybody for a while but when he had a proper challenge he lost. This one might be controversial to many people due to the examples i will give, but i think without a long reigning title run (or at least a long reign fighting guys in their prime), style is the only reason you can get in. Examples: Sonny Liston, Rocky Marciano.

 

 

- BIT OF EVERYTHING: This guy has a mix of everything mentioned. He has fought in several weights, has been World champion a few times, has fought a lot of top competition and beaten most of them. Not to be confused with Vinny Pazienza. That guy fought a good level of opposition but he didn’t beat enough great opponents and didn’t win enough genuine World titles. This guy did. Examples: James Toney, Mike McCallum.

 

 

- CONTROVERSIAL KEEP-OUTS: Guys kept out of the World title scene due to controversial issues (often due to racism back in the early days or simply not being given a fair chance). We are told that many guys never became World champion due to racism. This is believable. This is why many people have never heard of great boxers despite them deserving to be called World champions. Examples: Charley Burley, Sam Langford, Harry Willis, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette.

 

 

- EXTRAORDINARY FEATS: Achieving something that is unlikely to be done again or at least very rare. Not something like beating your opponent in 8 seconds or weighing in at 400lbs as a HW or winning a bout without even throwing a punch due to your opponent slipping and knocking himself out. Nothing like that. I'm thinking more like Ted Kid Lewis and Jack Britton. They famously fought each other 20 times. Some people may say: "So what?". I say that is an important achievement. It is the sort of achievement (from two very good boxers might i add) that allows us all to look back in history and quote when relevant. For example, a boxer today says "Why should i grant this guy a rematch? I don't have to, what's the point?". We can then say: "Lewis fought Britton 20 times! They had balls of steel. What do you have?". It is feats like this that make boxing analysis a whole lot easier. And what about Len Wickwar? He is widely regarded as having fought the most boxing bouts (465). That is a feat i think most people agree will never be done again ever. Surely that is a feat that cannot be ignored? Perhaps the guy wasn't World class and perhaps he wasn't even that skilful, but 465 bouts is a lot. He is in a class of his own. How about Oscar de la Hoya? His extraordinary feat is that he gets into the HOF not only on his record, but also for his promoting. He was amongst the most successful promoters WHILST STILL BOXING! That is an accomplishment. And what about Joe Louis and his record 25 defences of the heavyweight title and reign that lasted 11 years and 10 months? Or Julio Cesar Chavez and his record for most World title bouts (37), most World title defences (27) and longest win streak in professional boxing (87)? He gets into HOF for these amazing feats as well as him being World champion at 3 weights and fighting for 25 years against many of the best fighters of the time. Finally, how about Jimmy Wilde? He holds the record for the longest unbeaten streak in boxing (103) as well as being rated as one of the hardest punchers of all time (3rd place according to Ring Magazine).

[WelshDevilRob]

Great read, mate.

 

I like all the criterias you've listed. Alot of Great names mentioned.

[londoner]

Great read, mate.

 

I like all the criterias you've listed. Alot of Great names mentioned.

 

Thanks, Rob.

 

I'm not sure if The HOF will want to apply MY own take on things, but maybe they should look at having a list of criteria that must be met. If they are, then entrance is guaranteed. If they aren't met, then no entrance.

 

Of course, the criteria is then open to debate as to what constitutes a great win etc... But, it's an interesting debate.

[WelshDevilRob]

Great read, mate.

 

I like all the criterias you've listed. Alot of Great names mentioned.

 

Thanks, Rob.

 

I'm not sure if The HOF will want to apply MY own take on things, but maybe they should look at having a list of criteria that must be met. If they are, then entrance is guaranteed. If they aren't met, then no entrance.

 

Of course, the criteria is then open to debate as to what constitutes a great win etc... But, it's an interesting debate.

 

I often get confused between the BHOF and the IBHOF - I think one is more lenient while the other only lets the elite in.

Would be interesting to see what there criteria/guidelines are to people who fought and how fighters get on the ballot.

[Crusader]

Re: What are the key credentials to get into the HALL OF FAM

 

What are the key credentials to get into the HALL OF FAME?

 

 

There is a lot to debate on the subject of who deserves a place in the International Boxing Hall Of Fame. I try to have a conservative view of those allowed in as i don’t like seeing the achievements of early Hall of Famers being devalued by allowing new HOFers in who haven’t achieved anywhere near as much. I mean i understand there will only ever be one Sugar Ray Robinson and there will only be a handful of Julio Cesar Chavez's and Leonard's. So anyone who gets in since them are going to find it hard to match up. And i don’t think we should hold that against them. So what if Pacquiao doesn’t rate as high as Duran or Robinson? Should he not be allowed in? Of course he should. And so what if Roy Jones jr has lost so many fights in the last 6 years. Should we not allow him in because he has refused to retire sooner? Of course we should let him in. And so what if Floyd Mayweather hasn’t beaten all the best guys he could have, should he be refused entry? No. Because he is a 5 weight champion nonetheless and that is a big achievement in itself.

 

 

I understand boxing is very much down to personal interpretation as opposed to statistics. For example, in soccer we can tell who the best strikers are by how many goals they score. A guy like Lionel Messi who scores 40 goals in a season is obviously better than a guy who scores just 10. Add to that his skill and teamwork and we know he is a great player. In boxing we see many fights where the fighter who is the aggressor and throws more punches can lose a bout if the judges believe the opponent LANDED more or threw the most important punches. It is down to interpretation much of the time as opposed to statistics.

 

 

But for me, i have a theory that we can look into entry to the HOF in a manner whereby we evaluate the boxer's main attributes and credentials and see if he/she matches up into one of the following categories:

 

 

- ABSOLUTE GREATNESS: Sugar Ray Robinson, for example, beat the lot. He fought everybody and beat them all. Even those he lost to, he came back to beat. He had an amazing style, possibly had the best boxing style of all time. He beat ten hall of famers, beat many of them several times. He fought Jake LaMotta six times. Many fighters didn’t even get in the ring with one hall of famer. SRR got in the ring with one hall of famer six times! He also never got KO'd in his amateur or pro career. That is special.

 

 

- LONG REIGNING CHAMP: A guy who is a long reigning World champion. Might not have beaten all of the best fighters. Might not even have beaten a HOFer. But if you’re an undefeated World champion for 10 years fighting GOOD opposition you’re hardly a total bum. Examples: Joe Calzaghe, Dariusz Michalczewski, Vitali Klitchsko.

 

 

- LONG REIGNING MEGA CHAMP: The difference with this guy and a “long reigning champ” is that this champion beat a lot of HOFers and held more than one title during his reign. A fighter like this around today would be compared to a champion of the past. Examples: Joe Louis, Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Larry Holmes.

 

 

- WORLD CHAMPION WARRIOR: This guy is very often Mexican. Has fought pretty much everybody and beaten a lot of them (or most). Has loads of HOFers on his record. Has been World champion on several occasions but perhaps not always long reigning. He has fought everyone in his weight classes. Will be remembered for his style as much as his World titles. Examples: Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Johnny Tapia, Juan Manuel Marquez.

 

 

- ONE WEIGHT WARRIOR: This guy might only have been World champion in one weight but he was a great champion at that weight and fought most of the best within the weight class. Examples: Aaron Pryor, Kostya tszyu, Lennox Lewis.

 

 

- TWO WEIGHT WORLD CHAMPION: Champion at two different weights. For example, Evander Holyfield is the first guy to be World champion at Cruiserweight and HW. He made use of the two weights he fought in. This guy is not to be confused with Herbie Hide, Ricky Hatton or Arturo Gatti. Those guys used what they had and were talented and entertaining but they weren’t World beaters. This guy could beat some of the best. Examples: Evander Holyfield, Carlos Zarate, Michael Spinks.

 

 

- THREE WEIGHT WORLD CHAMPION: This guy might not be World champion in four or more weights but is World champion in several weights nonetheless. If you’re a genuine World champion in more than one weight you’re going to be good. Examples: Pernell Whitaker, Felix Trinidad, Alexis Arguello, Ricardo Lopez.

 

 

- FOUR OR MORE WEIGHT CHAMPION: A guy who might not have beaten the lot. Might not have even beaten a HOFer. But has fought in four or more weight classes and been World champion in them all. That's some accomplishment. Examples: Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather jr, Oscar de la Hoya, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran.

 

 

- LONGEVITY: A guy who makes his debut in 1980 and is still going strong in 2000. He doesn’t just fight bums during that time either. This guy must have a few champions on his list but he doesn’t necessarily have to be a World champion himself as long as he is beating some great fighters. If the guy doesn’t beat enough greats he is Glencoffe Johnson or Montell Griffin. Examples: Jack Johnson, George Foreman, Max Schmeling.

 

 

- FIGHTER OF HALL OF FAMERS: Fights a whole list of HOFers. Due to such a difficult level of opposition the guy is going to lose. It’s natural. If you fight nothing but the best, you will lose. But this guy wins as well. Examples: Kid Gavilan, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta.

 

 

- STYLE KING: This guy makes it in with style/ability alone. He might never have become World champion or did so only a couple of times. He gets in because his style and willingness to compete means it is impossible to keep him out. Not to be confused with Billy Fox. That guy ko’d everybody for a while but when he had a proper challenge he lost. This one might be controversial to many people due to the examples i will give, but i think without a long reigning title run (or at least a long reign fighting guys in their prime), style is the only reason you can get in. Examples: Sonny Liston, Rocky Marciano.

 

 

- BIT OF EVERYTHING: This guy has a mix of everything mentioned. He has fought in several weights, has been World champion a few times, has fought a lot of top competition and beaten most of them. Not to be confused with Vinny Pazienza. That guy fought a good level of opposition but he didn’t beat enough great opponents and didn’t win enough genuine World titles. This guy did. Examples: James Toney, Mike McCallum.

 

 

- CONTROVERSIAL KEEP-OUTS: Guys kept out of the World title scene due to controversial issues (often due to racism back in the early days or simply not being given a fair chance). We are told that many guys never became World champion due to racism. This is believable. This is why many people have never heard of great boxers despite them deserving to be called World champions. Examples: Charley Burley, Sam Langford, Harry Willis, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette.

 

 

- EXTRAORDINARY FEATS: Achieving something that is unlikely to be done again or at least very rare. Not something like beating your opponent in 8 seconds or weighing in at 400lbs as a HW or winning a bout without even throwing a punch due to your opponent slipping and knocking himself out. Nothing like that. I'm thinking more like Ted Kid Lewis and Jack Britton. They famously fought each other 20 times. Some people may say: "So what?". I say that is an important achievement. It is the sort of achievement (from two very good boxers might i add) that allows us all to look back in history and quote when relevant. For example, a boxer today says "Why should i grant this guy a rematch? I don't have to, what's the point?". We can then say: "Lewis fought Britton 20 times! They had balls of steel. What do you have?". It is feats like this that make boxing analysis a whole lot easier. And what about Len Wickwar? He is widely regarded as having fought the most boxing bouts (465). That is a feat i think most people agree will never be done again ever. Surely that is a feat that cannot be ignored? Perhaps the guy wasn't World class and perhaps he wasn't even that skilful, but 465 bouts is a lot. He is in a class of his own. How about Oscar de la Hoya? His extraordinary feat is that he gets into the HOF not only on his record, but also for his promoting. He was amongst the most successful promoters WHILST STILL BOXING! That is an accomplishment. And what about Joe Louis and his record 25 defences of the heavyweight title and reign that lasted 11 years and 10 months? Or Julio Cesar Chavez and his record for most World title bouts (37), most World title defences (27) and longest win streak in professional boxing (87)? He gets into HOF for these amazing feats as well as him being World champion at 3 weights and fighting for 25 years against many of the best fighters of the time. Finally, how about Jimmy Wilde? He holds the record for the longest unbeaten streak in boxing (103) as well as being rated as one of the hardest punchers of all time (3rd place according to Ring Magazine).

 

Post magnificent, I love your selection criterial which I agree fully !!

 

bravo//

[iamasadlittleboy]

Wasn't Ricardo Lopez only a 2 weight champion? Leo Gamez was a 3 weight one >_>

 

I think impact could also be a criteria, things like Jem Mace, James J Corbett, Ali, De La Hoya, Leonard and even Gatti could be included here. They either brought a new fan base (Gatti) revolutionised the sport (Mace, Figg and Corbett) or had massive appeal that brought in the mega attention (de la hoya, ali), also amateur success could also be an extra (Harry Mallin, Lazlo Papp, Stevenson and Savon) ?

[londoner]

Wasn't Ricardo Lopez only a 2 weight champion?

 

Well, spotted. Just moved him into the right category.

[hhascup]

It looks pretty good to me. I think most of the voters do go by many of what is listed. You see we are given 45 names for the modern category and 50 for the old-timers, and we can pick up to 10 in each category, but they only pick the top 3 vote getters. I am on both committees which is an honor that not too many get.

 

- FIGHTER OF HALL OF FAMERS: I know of a fighter that beat 7 HOF fighters a total of 8 times. He fought a total of 12 HOF fighters in his career, But he isn't even on the ballot, and I bet most of you wouldn't know him even if I told you.

 

Memphis Pal Moore also beat 7 HOF fighters and had a record of 12-6-7 against the 10 HOF fighters he fought. I pushed for him over the last several years and he is finally getting in this year. The same goes for Charlie White.

[edsel77x]

Great stuff!

 

Awesome piece londoner!!!

[WelshDevilRob]

I think the ability to avenge losses is also a criteria. Lennox Lewis did it twice. I think too much is made of a fighter losing a bout generally.

 

Azumah Nelson is another that did it.

[Crusader]

I think the ability to avenge losses is also a criteria. Lennox Lewis did it twice. I think too much is made of a fighter losing a bout generally.

 

Azumah Nelson is another that did it.

 

Good point, is not easy for a fighter of high level analyze the defeat, even tough, and get ideas for revenge, great tactital capacity of analize and brain...

" ..against that opponent I've made mistakes that I'll never make.."

[londoner]

It looks pretty good to me. I think most of the voters do go by many of what is listed. You see we are given 45 names for the modern category and 50 for the old-timers, and we can pick up to 10 in each category, but they only pick the top 3 vote getters. I am on both committees which is an honor that not too many get.

 

- FIGHTER OF HALL OF FAMERS: I know of a fighter that beat 7 HOF fighters a total of 8 times. He fought a total of 12 HOF fighters in his career, But he isn't even on the ballot, and I bet most of you wouldn't know him even if I told you.

 

Memphis Pal Moore also beat 7 HOF fighters and had a record of 12-6-7 against the 10 HOF fighters he fought. I pushed for him over the last several years and he is finally getting in this year. The same goes for Charlie White.

 

It must be very interesting to debate the many great boxers and who deserves to be in and who not.

 

Do you know if there are any plans to modernise what constitutes a "modern day fighters" and what constitutes an "old timer"?

 

I know a few people who often tell me it is something that needs looking at as many boxers are ultimately "forgotten about" as they are constantly pushed to the back of the queue, so to speak.