David Haye - Why i do not like your big gob

[londoner]

I think i'm very fair to ALL boxers. In fact, believe it or not, i was once a fan of Floyd Mayweather jr, Joe Calzaghe and even David Haye, despite it looking like i never have been.

 

I was a big Joe Calzaghe fan up until about 2005 when i realised he'd reached his 30s and still hadn't consolidated his legacy. Even when he was fighting Lacy, i watched but i still wasn't impressed. Same with the Kessler and Hopkins wins. Call me mr Fussy, but i just felt it was too little too late.

 

I was a fan of Floyd Mayweather jr until about 2006. I thought he looked class and i even let him off for not fighting Casamayor and Freitas mainly because there were bigger fights out there for him. I even gave him a lot of credit for fighting ODLH, even though i wasn't a "fan" anymore at that time. But, once he retired and due to the fact those bigger fights never materialised i went off him.

 

And, David Haye. I was a big fan of his and felt the Carl Thompson loss was a GOOD thing for him because i always believe fighters need a loss to improve. And when he beat Jean Marc Mormeck i was VERY impressed. He went to Paris to fight the LINEAL champion at CW and he won.

 

But, since that win, it has all been down hill.

 

I have no problem at all with arrogance, cockiness etc. In fact, i think it's quite amusing. I liked Ali, Toney, RJJ etc and they were all cocky. I also like Froch and he's very confident.

 

But, i don't like guys like David Haye who shoot their mouths off at every opportunity but only have 26 bouts against mediocre opposition to back his words up.

 

DAVID HAYE'S CAREER:

 

Crusierweight falsities:

 

Some people say David Haye "UNIFIED" the cruiserweight division. No, he didn't. He won the WBC+WBA belts from Jean Marc Mormeck, in one bout. The same way Joe Calzaghe beat Kessler for two belts. Then he beat Enzo Maccarinelli for the WBO title.

 

The WBO champion throughout the 2000s was Johnny Nelson. He was meant to defend against Maccarinelli at some point but he decided to retire due to injury. He was about 40 as well if i remember right.

 

In the 2 years Maccarrinelli was champion, he defended against some very average opposition. Braithwaite was old by this time and his other opponents weren't a great threat.

 

Haye didn't fight the following in his time at CW, who were all around at the time and held World titles:

 

- Steve Cunningham

- Krzysztof Włodarczyk

- Tomasz Adamek

 

Włodarczyk won the vacant IBF title against Cunningham. Cunningham then won it from Włodarczyk. Adamek then won the title from Cunningham.

 

Does anybody REALLY think Enzo Maccarinelli was better than these 3 fighters?

 

His record certainly wasn't.

 

So how could Haye have "UNIFIED" the division when he didn't even fight the best fighter in it?

 

Mormeck was just ONE of the good fighters in the division.

 

Before Haye fought Mormeck for the WBC+WBA titles (his first World title shot), the only 3 significant fighters on his record were:

 

- Tomasz Bonin (at HW)

- Giacobbe Fragomeni

- Carl Thompson

 

Thompson was old and still beat him, Fragomeni was 21-0 but had fought against nobody of any importance and Bonin had lost to Audley Harrison.

 

He then challenged Mormeck IN PARIS. I gave him a LOT of credit for that. Mormeck had beaten Virgil Hill (twice), Wayne Braithwaite and O'Neil Bell.

 

So i give him credit for beating Mormeck and away from home.

 

I also give him credit for beating Maccarinelli.

 

But, TWO World class bouts in a weight class aren't unifying it especially when he didn't fight 3 guys who were arguably better than BOTH Mormeck and Maccarinelli.

 

Heavyweight humdrum:

 

I gave Haye the benefit of the doubt for not staying on at CW to fight Cunnigham and Adamek at the time because he was moving UP a weight. It wasn't as if he was moving down a weight to avoid big punchers. He was moving into the big time.

 

However, in the 2 years he has been at HW, we have heard nothing but talk. Similar to what Naseem Hamed used to do: All talk and no great fights to back it up.

 

Here are his 5 bouts at HW:

 

- Tomasz Bonin: The guy had lost to Audley Harrison !!!

 

- Monte Barrett: A journeyman with a soft chin.

 

- Nikolai Valuev: A slow fighter and Haye barely engaged him preferring to move a lot instead. But, fair enough, Haye took the fight against a bigger man. Although, some say he lost.

 

- John Ruiz: The guy was ancient and it was his last bout.

 

- Audley Harrison: Nothing needs saying.

 

I find it very hard to defend Haye's record. It's missing 3 or 4 CWs to say he unified the CW division. That is done overtime and not in 2 bouts. And his HW record is about 10% that of the Klitschkos' records.

 

Does anybody think Haye has a SINGLE opponent on his record that compares to ANY of the Klitschkos' opponents?

 

I don't know and i don't really care whether Wladimir is to blame or Haye is to blame in a fight falling through etc... All i know is by looking at the Klitchkos' records and looking at Haye's record, i KNOW the Klitschkos have fought a much higher calibre of opponent and THEY are the real champions. They call the shots. If a fight falls through, the Klitschkos have a body of work they can be proud of, Haye does not.

[londoner]

Haye plans on winning the World titles in the easiest way possible: Go straight to the titles, hopefully win them, then retire with them before he reaches 31 and with less than 30 bouts to his name.

 

People will be OK with this IF he beats the Klitschkos. I'm not though.

 

I WILL give Haye credit if he manages to beat them both but why should we rank him higher than the Klitschkos?

 

The Klitschkos have fought 101 times. If we remove the 50 or so journeymen they fought, this still leaves 50 solid bouts.

 

Would Haye have beaten any of their opponents:

 

- Samuel Peter

- Herbie Hide

- Chris Arreola

- Chris Byrd

- Samuel Peter

- Shannon Briggs

- Ruslan Chagaev

- Lamon Brewster

- Corrie Sanders

- Ray Mercer

- Juan Carlos Gomez

 

- How many of those would Haye have beaten?

- If Sanders and Purity could KO Wladimir, could they do the same to Haye?

- Would Haye have beaten a prime Herbie Hide like Vitali did?

- Would haye have fought Brewster, Peter and Byrd twice each like Wladimir did?

 

There are so many questions to ask of Haye.

 

Had he taken the LONG route to HW dominance like the Klitschkos did, he would not have lost only once. There is no way in a million years Haye would have just ONE loss on his record had he fought this level of competition.

 

So i have no particular wish in seeing Haye gain a legacy off of a win from one or two fighters. He should be made to do it the long way and fight into his mid 30s. The Klitschkos don't need him and should just ignore him.

 

If the Klitshckos fight Chisora, Adamek, Austin, Solis between them this year and then maybe follow it up in 2012 with fights against Valuev, Povetkin etc that would only solidify their position as HW behemoths.

 

If Haye fought ANY of those names mentioned, he may be headed for another loss. But, we will only ever know if he does the honourable thing and that is: Stop talking about retirement, fight half a dozen big names and finally get your shot at the brothers.

[londoner]

Sorry that's a lot of writing.

[grapevine241]

well done, i agree with everything you wrote. i would add that valuev had really just been beat by ancient evander and barrett had actually knocked haye down.

 

its nice to see a british boxing fan that isnt delusional about haye.

[The_budweiser]

I agree with you londoner in 2 years since beating Maccarinelli hes did more talking with his mouth than his fists, which is a big disappointment if you compare them to what his mouth was ranting. I think the fans have been let down by haye in the last 2 years apart from the Valuev fight, which could of been a very dangerous fight. He hasn't lived up to the expectation that he created himself. If Haye does go on to beat Wladimir Klitschko many will say well he was 35, and you should of thought him 2 years ago when he was 32/33, taking more credit away from himself. I wanted Haye to beat both the Klits but now i want the Klits to beat Haye, hes let the fans down and conning us all.

[davemurphy]

Well said, Bud. We're ALL begging for another good HW, even his detractors over here would like nothing better than David Haye to be the real deal!!! He essentially had EVERYONE in his Corner in that regard.....and in just 2 years time has swung even most of his biggest fans against him. The PR method to get the Klits to take notice of him was brilliant, but it appears as though the goal was NOT to actually get a fight with them and has been sadly disappointing.

[Mooreman]

Londoner, that was epic. Exactly my thoughts but I havent time for that detail. Excellent and accurate writing. Its about seeing things for what they really are, and not the hype.

[londoner]

Like i said in the very first sentence, i like EVERY boxer. But, if a boxer becomes arrogant/cocky i will only carry on liking them if they back up their words.

 

I liked Naseem Hamed. But he bragged too much. How can he brag THAT much when he never fought: Morales, Tapia, Marquez, Gatti, Ayala, Mayweather jr and i'm sure i've missed some more. All of these guys were linked to fights with him . Marquez was linked for ages, Mayweather and Gatti both called him out (Mayweather jr called him out in the ring after beating Corrales), Tapia was linked to a bout after Barrera beat Hamed....

 

He fought one Mexican legend out of the half a dozen great fighters queuing up. So i don't take his record seriously.

[brooklynbrawler]

goodp//

 

Great read, and you match my own thoughts exactly, summed up into a nice article.

Haye's whole career has been generated from his mouth and self-promotion more than the opponents he has beaten.

I used to buy into it, and was possibly just buying into a hope that there really was a heavyweight who could "breathe some life" into the division.

Unfortunately he's just gone in there and sucked the life right out of it, with nonsense PAY PER VIEW (ffs) fights against ridiculous opponents.

Instead of being a saviour, he has been the very epitome, if not leading light of the modern day boxer, bleeding every last penny he can get for as little effort and risk as humanly possible.

[londoner]

I used to buy into it, and was possibly just buying into a hope that there really was a heavyweight who could "breathe some life" into the division.

Unfortunately he's just gone in there and sucked the life right out of it, with nonsense PAY PER VIEW (ffs) fights against ridiculous opponents.

Instead of being a saviour, he has been the very epitome, if not leading light of the modern day boxer, bleeding every last penny he can get for as little effort and risk as humanly possible.

 

Exactly. I was a big Haye fan. I remember watching Haye vs Maccarinelli in Wales (when i lived there) with a mate. He wasn't a big boxing fan and really thought it was a 50-50 fight. Before the fight i just said to him: "Mate, Enzo will be lucky to get out of round 1. He has nothing on Haye". It took Haye 2 rounds to win. And the Mormeck win was great. He went to Paris and beat the lineal champion.

 

However, had i known he would move up to HW and do nothing but live off of two very hard working champions' reputations, i'd have preferred him to stay at CW and fight Cunningham, Włodarczyk and Adamek.

 

I gave him the benefit of the doubt for not fighting them AT THE TIME. But, only because he was moving into big boy territory, at HW. Had i known he wasn't going to fight anyone significant, i would've just preferred him to stay at CW.

[Johnny Walker]

Re: David Haye - Why i do not like your big gob

 

I think i'm very fair to ALL boxers. In fact, believe it or not, i was once a fan of Floyd Mayweather jr, Joe Calzaghe and even David Haye, despite it looking like i never have been.

 

I was a big Joe Calzaghe fan up until about 2005 when i realised he'd reached his 30s and still hadn't consolidated his legacy. Even when he was fighting Lacy, i watched but i still wasn't impressed. Same with the Kessler and Hopkins wins. Call me mr Fussy, but i just felt it was too little too late.

 

I was a fan of Floyd Mayweather jr until about 2006. I thought he looked class and i even let him off for not fighting Casamayor and Freitas mainly because there were bigger fights out there for him. I even gave him a lot of credit for fighting ODLH, even though i wasn't a "fan" anymore at that time. But, once he retired and due to the fact those bigger fights never materialised i went off him.

 

And, David Haye. I was a big fan of his and felt the Carl Thompson loss was a GOOD thing for him because i always believe fighters need a loss to improve. And when he beat Jean Marc Mormeck i was VERY impressed. He went to Paris to fight the LINEAL champion at CW and he won.

 

But, since that win, it has all been down hill.

 

I have no problem at all with arrogance, cockiness etc. In fact, i think it's quite amusing. I liked Ali, Toney, RJJ etc and they were all cocky. I also like Froch and he's very confident.

 

But, i don't like guys like David Haye who shoot their mouths off at every opportunity but only have 26 bouts against mediocre opposition to back his words up.

 

DAVID HAYE'S CAREER:

 

Crusierweight falsities:

 

Some people say David Haye "UNIFIED" the cruiserweight division. No, he didn't. He won the WBC+WBA belts from Jean Marc Mormeck, in one bout. The same way Joe Calzaghe beat Kessler for two belts. Then he beat Enzo Maccarinelli for the WBO title.

 

The WBO champion throughout the 2000s was Johnny Nelson. He was meant to defend against Maccarinelli at some point but he decided to retire due to injury. He was about 40 as well if i remember right.

 

In the 2 years Maccarrinelli was champion, he defended against some very average opposition. Braithwaite was old by this time and his other opponents weren't a great threat.

 

Haye didn't fight the following in his time at CW, who were all around at the time and held World titles:

 

- Steve Cunningham

- Krzysztof Włodarczyk

- Tomasz Adamek

 

Włodarczyk won the vacant IBF title against Cunningham. Cunningham then won it from Włodarczyk. Adamek then won the title from Cunningham.

 

Does anybody REALLY think Enzo Maccarinelli was better than these 3 fighters?

 

His record certainly wasn't.

 

So how could Haye have "UNIFIED" the division when he didn't even fight the best fighter in it?

 

Mormeck was just ONE of the good fighters in the division.

 

Before Haye fought Mormeck for the WBC+WBA titles (his first World title shot), the only 3 significant fighters on his record were:

 

- Tomasz Bonin (at HW)

- Giacobbe Fragomeni

- Carl Thompson

 

Thompson was old and still beat him, Fragomeni was 21-0 but had fought against nobody of any importance and Bonin had lost to Audley Harrison.

 

He then challenged Mormeck IN PARIS. I gave him a LOT of credit for that. Mormeck had beaten Virgil Hill (twice), Wayne Braithwaite and O'Neil Bell.

 

So i give him credit for beating Mormeck and away from home.

 

I also give him credit for beating Maccarinelli.

 

But, TWO World class bouts in a weight class aren't unifying it especially when he didn't fight 3 guys who were arguably better than BOTH Mormeck and Maccarinelli.

 

Heavyweight humdrum:

 

I gave Haye the benefit of the doubt for not staying on at CW to fight Cunnigham and Adamek at the time because he was moving UP a weight. It wasn't as if he was moving down a weight to avoid big punchers. He was moving into the big time.

 

However, in the 2 years he has been at HW, we have heard nothing but talk. Similar to what Naseem Hamed used to do: All talk and no great fights to back it up.

 

Here are his 5 bouts at HW:

 

- Tomasz Bonin: The guy had lost to Audley Harrison !!!

 

- Monte Barrett: A journeyman with a soft chin.

 

- Nikolai Valuev: A slow fighter and Haye barely engaged him preferring to move a lot instead. But, fair enough, Haye took the fight against a bigger man. Although, some say he lost.

 

- John Ruiz: The guy was ancient and it was his last bout.

 

- Audley Harrison: Nothing needs saying.

 

I find it very hard to defend Haye's record. It's missing 3 or 4 CWs to say he unified the CW division. That is done overtime and not in 2 bouts. And his HW record is about 10% that of the Klitschkos' records.

 

Does anybody think Haye has a SINGLE opponent on his record that compares to ANY of the Klitschkos' opponents?

 

I don't know and i don't really care whether Wladimir is to blame or Haye is to blame in a fight falling through etc... All i know is by looking at the Klitchkos' records and looking at Haye's record, i KNOW the Klitschkos have fought a much higher calibre of opponent and THEY are the real champions. They call the shots. If a fight falls through, the Klitschkos have a body of work they can be proud of, Haye does not.

 

Top post! goodp//

[donlevy]

I agree with pretty much all of your post,though I don't see how anyone would fault Haye for not fighting Adamek at cruiserweight.Adamek was just moving up in weight as Haye had announced that he was finding the weight a real struggle to cut down to and was very vocal in his intentions to move up in weight.

[McBride]

Good post londoner, hit the nail on the head, but i'm afraid in this day and age where " fans " are more interested in the bitching between promoters and other hangers on than they are in the actual fights this stuff is to be expected.

 

Sorry to harp on about it, but the best example is the Mayweather / Packow fight. The bitching has gone on so long now, proper fight fans just dont care about the fight anymore.

[londoner]

I agree with pretty much all of your post,though I don't see how anyone would fault Haye for not fighting Adamek at cruiserweight.Adamek was just moving up in weight as Haye had announced that he was finding the weight a real struggle to cut down to and was very vocal in his intentions to move up in weight.

 

Yeah, i see what you mean. That's why i put the timeline in the first post:

 

"Włodarczyk won the vacant IBF title against Cunningham. Cunningham then won it from Włodarczyk. Adamek then won the title from Cunningham".

 

I gave Haye a lot of respect at the time for moving up to HW and not fighting Adamek, who was fighting for the IBF title when Haye had moved up to HW.

 

But, if i'd realised he was going to fight 4 average journeymen and Valuev, i'd have just preferred him to stay at CW.

 

And if he couldn't make CW but STILL didn't want to fight the better opposition at HW (Povetkin, Adamek, Solis, Dimitrenko, Peter, Boystov etc) then just stop mouthing off all the time.

[WelshDevilRob]

I agree with pretty much all of your post,though I don't see how anyone would fault Haye for not fighting Adamek at cruiserweight.Adamek was just moving up in weight as Haye had announced that he was finding the weight a real struggle to cut down to and was very vocal in his intentions to move up in weight.

 

Yeah, i see what you mean. That's why i put the timeline in the first post:

 

"Włodarczyk won the vacant IBF title against Cunningham. Cunningham then won it from Włodarczyk. Adamek then won the title from Cunningham".

 

I gave Haye a lot of respect at the time for moving up to HW and not fighting Adamek, who was fighting for the IBF title when Haye had moved up to HW.

 

But, if i'd realised he was going to fight 4 average journeymen and Valuev, i'd have just preferred him to stay at CW.

 

And if he couldn't make CW but STILL didn't want to fight the better opposition at HW (Povetkin, Adamek, Solis, Dimitrenko, Peter, Boystov etc) then just stop mouthing off all the time.

 

In an ideal World Haye would have stayed at Cruiserweight and beaten Cunningham and Adamek but he was not strong at the weight anymore and needed to go up. I don't see why that is a slant against him.

 

I understand the dismissal of Hayes opposition at Heavyweight and would like to see better names on there. I have no problem with Ruiz as he was the mandatory - thats the WBA's fault for ranking him so high. Harrison fight was a money making farce that Sky TV wanted and then blamed Harrison for.

 

Dimitrenko and Boytsov are options now and not really in the past. Maybe Haye might fight one Ukrainian by the time he retires. grin//

 

On this point

 

Would Haye have beaten any of their opponents:

 

- Samuel Peter

- Herbie Hide

- Chris Arreola

- Chris Byrd

- Samuel Peter

- Shannon Briggs

- Ruslan Chagaev

- Lamon Brewster

- Corrie Sanders

- Ray Mercer

- Juan Carlos Gomez

 

I will say Yes he would. You take the time Klitschkos fought these guys and I have no problems with Haye being able to beat any of them.

[donlevy]

What annoys me about Haye is his inactivity.The guy dragged this year out just to go three rounds with Audley Harrison.If he wanted the money,why not just deal with Harrison months earlier?