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Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston


reznick
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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

--- Liston was a bully who never fought anyone close to a prime Joe Louis much less beat anyone 1/2 of that caliber.

 

Louis fought and knocked out many bigger and stronger than Liston. Liston has his best chance early as Joe could sometimes be a slow starter, but I think he'd be really up for this and come out smart and aggressive looking for the kill as he countered Liston in the pocket with his short hooks that always did the trick.

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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

Liston had some wars as well as easily destroying people. He fought a peak Cleveland Williams twice, not the shell that Ali KO'd easily.

He had some decent wins against Machen, Folley and of course two first round wins over the exceptional Patterson. There is no way on earth that Ali KO'd Liston legitimately in their rematch. Ali himself admitted that he could not punch, and if you watch Liston v Williams, you will see what a shot Sonny could take.

Joe Louis did not have a great chin (he was knocked down seven times in his first amatuer bout) and as you said, was often a slow starter, therefore Liston being a very fast starter and an extremely hard and deceptively fast puncher, you have to give a him a chance.

Yes Louis had an all time greats resume, but we will never know how great Liston could have been, if he would not have had mob connections and threats on his life from the nation of Islam.

Louis was a much nicer person, but his record is not as impressive as it appears when you study it. Wins over what were called bums of the month and wins over light heavies, but yes he was an all time great, but like Marciano, his record is not as great as it appears, if scrutinized.

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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

--- Most of Louis' bums were actually rated by Ring, it's just that he defended so frequently that inevitably new heavies had to replace the old heavies that got knocked out of the ratings.

 

Generally Joe is considered the best all time heavy exactly because of his resume, not because of his first ama fight. Henry Armstrong lost his first 3 of 4 pro fights, the first by KO, but nobody penalizes him for it. It's the fighter you become that counts. Joe won his first pro fight by knocking out a solid journeyman with a good record, knocked him into the lap of the commish at ringside in the first round. Nobody starts their pro career with a better result than that and nobody finished like Joe did well past his prime as top ranked in Ring Ratings which actually counted for something back then rather than the Goldenboy/Haymon orchestrated ratings they have going today.

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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

I am well aware that he is indeed considered great. I was merely pointing out a few facts that when some people think about them, may well agree. He did become very dominant, but mostly against bums (and that isn't me that labled them as that, it is set in boxing folklore) and light heavies, and he was chinny, which in my opinion, gives Liston a chance.

I hate to come across as argumentative, or troublesome, and that is not what I want to be.

You said it is not how you start, it is the fighter you become, when I mentioned that he was knocked down seven times in his first amatuer bout, but he was still frequently knocked down even at his peak. I do agree with your statement, that it is about the fighter you become and boxers records are misleading, as they are carefully guided, in order to make the manager and promoter money, but he really did not do anything like win as a massive underdog, or beat a string of great fighters. I am not a big Ali fan, but he did have some exceptional opponents compared to Louis, and did win back the title after a long time, and as the underdog.

Peace

Edited by chaconfan
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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

--- Debate is not argumentative, it's part of basic discussion which is what this forum is for.

 

Of course I give Liston a chance, but as mentioned he had a bully mentality which many sluggers naturally have, but Joe cast from a higher maker than Liston. Beating a very undersized Patterson who had a protected reign as champion does not prepare him for a Louis. If you add up the HOFers Joe beat, his only one behind Ali, and of course Joe could just as easily beat a quitting Liston, a 50 yr old Moore or a Norton susceptible to a big punch that Ali is credited for fighting 3x and scarcely putting a dent in him.

 

If Ali hadn't had those dozen or so controversies that always went his way, I could rate him higher. Had Liston come up with more opportunities not mob related, same deal, he certainly had the natural attributes, but so did dozens more who never fulfilled their potential.

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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

You make some good points, but some are a bit harsh. Patterson may have had a protected reign, but he was an exceptional fighter, being the youngest(until Tyson) and the first to ever regain the heavyweight title.....despite being (as you say) very undersized. He beat Cooper who almost KO'd Ali, along with Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena, and Johasson.

I am not an Ali fan, and had Norton winning all three fights, but I can't think of a dozen or so bad decisions that went his way. Shavers, Young, 2nd Spinks fight, and the two Norton ones, are the only ones, I know of being close enough to give to the other guy. Don't forget Louis was given a gift over Walcott and was totally outboxed by a light heavy. Yes he eventually got a KO, but you can't imagine a peak Ali being outboxed by a light heavy. Ali also had a MUCH better chin than Louis, and beat much better opponents than Joe. Joe may have beaten some hall of famers, but they were not as good as the guys Ali beat. Ali's none hall of fame opponents are far superior to Joe's non hall of fame opponents, plus some of Joe's HOF's were light heavies. Just some counter issues, and not an arguement by an annoyed Ali fan.

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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

Liston definitely has a chance with his power, but I would have to agree that Joe Louis would be too much for him.

 

Just want to clarify something here. I am not arguing that Liston was better than Louis. I was merely ststing that due to Liston being fast and VERY powerful, he MUST have had a good chance against Joe, due to Joe's less than stellar chin. The reality is, if Schmeling could do it, Liston could. Louis was the FAR more acomplished of the two, that is indisputable.

Edited by chaconfan
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Re: Joe Louis vs. Sonny Liston

 

I think we often underestimate the real power of Liston, Sonny was devastating ,for me is the only one with Foreman to be able to be compared to the first Tyson as a power of destruction. Joe Louis was a champion, not doubt about it, but I say Liston for ko

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