Leonard - Hagler Discussion

[Wheelchair]

(Topic moved from here.... http://budweiserboxing.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=4065&highlight=7 Wheelchair)

 

As far as Leonard goes, he's a more naturally talented fighter but not as skilled or durable

 

Leonard not durable? What fights have you been watching. He was only stopped in his last fight when he was clearly past it.

 

Ray was just as skilled in his way, how else could he defeat Hagler, Hearns and Duran?

 

He also enthralled the public and fight fans with his charisma and stye of fighting, something Floyd will never manage.

[Skav]

I agree that Leonard is a level or few above Mayweather but the thing with Leonard was that he used his retirements to his advantage ie he retired and let Hagler get old to the point where Leonard could come back and beat him.

 

Not only that, Leonard manipulated the politics of boxing and fought a few catchweight fights just to become that 5 weight champ that he is.

 

He fought Donny Lalonde and became champ in two weight divisions simultaneously just with that one fight.

 

As for Mayweather saying he's better than Robinson and Ali...the bloke spouts so much crap that I just scoff at him these days.

 

He's clever, though, because he gets the public reaction that he wants and, perhaps, because of the way he talks, he may even cloud a few people's judgements about how good he really is.

 

I've already heard people say he's the best boxer to grace the ring.

 

Goes to show what PR does.

[gavpowell]

Wouldn't Leonard have just been too quick and elusive for Hagler regardless of when they fought though? I've not seen that many Hagler fights but he always seemed like a stand and trade or stalk after you jkind of fighter, and Leonard would likely have been even quicker if they'd fought earlier.

[telboy66]

let Hagler get old to the point where Leonard could come back and beat him

 

Skav mate that just don't make sense it's as though you think leonard was peter pan he got just as old as Hagler time & tide mate & lets be fair he didn't destroy Hagler he nicked it

[donlevy]

Skav mate that just don't make sense it's as though you think leonard was peter pan he got just as old as Hagler time & tide mate & lets be fair he didn't destroy Hagler he nicked it

 

 

Not to mention spending his hiatus in the restrooms snorting cocaine with all the other celebrities of the day.

[LondonRingRules]

Re: Mayweather Reckons He's Better Than Ali & Robinson!

 

As far as Leonard goes, he's a more naturally talented fighter but not as skilled or durable

 

Leonard not durable? What fights have you been watching. He was only stopped in his last fight when he was clearly past it.

 

Ray was just as skilled in his way, how else could he defeat Hagler, Hearns and Duran?

 

He also enthralled the public and fight fans with his charisma and stye of fighting, something Floyd will never manage.

 

-------It seems you forget that Leonard retired out of health concerns initially, ie a lack of durability.

 

If Floydy has any health concerns other than his hands, he's hidden them well.

 

Leonard nicked a old Marv in a judging controversy that has probably generated thousands of brawls over the years. He never fancied a prime to prime fight with Marv. He nicked a 21 yr old Hearns with a TKO in a fight where Leonard probably sustained the majority of his eye damage by getting carved up and served in pieces by Hearns. Different ref, perhaps different results, but, regardless, he couldn't make the scratch line for the MEGABUCK$ prime to prime rematch.

 

Leonard never "beat" Duran. He was deathly scared of Duran after the first fight and went into flight at the mere mention of Duran showing up. Duran beat Duran who never suffered so much as a scratch against Leonard.

 

Nobody questions that Leonard enthralled the crowds, hence my statement that it's easier being Leonard than Floydy who has an inferiority complex to match Popkins.

[Wheelchair]

Re: Mayweather Reckons He's Better Than Ali & Robinson!

 

 

 

Leonard never "beat" Duran. He was deathly scared of Duran after the first fight and went into flight at the mere mention of Duran showing up.

 

That is a ridiculous statement.

[donlevy]

Re: Mayweather Reckons He's Better Than Ali & Robinson!

 

 

 

Leonard never "beat" Duran. He was deathly scared of Duran after the first fight and went into flight at the mere mention of Duran showing up.

 

That is a ridiculous statement.

 

 

 

No,it's true.Duran never actually lost a legitimate fight

 

 

Duran actually got his foot stuck in the bottom rope and slipped onto Hearns right hand.

[Wheelchair]

Like it! mlol/

 

What about all the other right hands Hearns was belting him with!??

 

Kirkland Laing, Marvin Hagler and Wilfredo Benitez. Three fighters who beat Duran no trouble.

[donlevy]

Roberto just wanted to prove to the world he could take Tommy's best punches.It may have looked like he was hurt up until the accidental knockout,but he was actually rolling with most of those punches.

[Wheelchair]

I'm gonna wet myself laughing in a minute! mlol/

[Skav]

let Hagler get old to the point where Leonard could come back and beat him

 

Skav mate that just don't make sense it's as though you think leonard was peter pan he got just as old as Hagler time & tide mate & lets be fair he didn't destroy Hagler he nicked it

 

Tel, it's been a couple of months since I've watched the fight but from my memory I seem to recall that I thought Hagler won the first 4 rounds but had Leonard pretty much breezing by Hagler soon afterward.

 

I don't see all the controversy and uproar about it, really, mate.

 

And gav, I believe so. Leonard was always too fleet of foot for Hagler's style who followed his opponents around the ring.

[Greb]

I agree that Leonard is a level or few above Mayweather but the thing with Leonard was that he used his retirements to his advantage ie he retired and let Hagler get old to the point where Leonard could come back and beat him.

 

Not only that, Leonard manipulated the politics of boxing and fought a few catchweight fights just to become that 5 weight champ that he is.

 

He fought Donny Lalonde and became champ in two weight divisions simultaneously just with that one fight.

 

That's why I don't hold Leonard in the same esteem as the rest of the Fab 4, all the crap he used to pull. Never giving rematches, constantly retiring and un-retiring to make fights when it suited him, using his network clout to secure catchweights, number of rounds, ring size, glove size, etc to suit him. It's like not coming to the table unless you know the deck is stacked in your favour.

 

Leonard could have fought Hagler any time he wanted between '82 and '85, but chose not to ("it'll never happen"). Then he's at ringside for the Mugabi fight and notices how much slower and hittable Hagler had become, and suddenly wants to fight him.

 

I also think some people are underselling Hagler a bit. Yes Leonard's speed would always be an issue, but Hagler himself was pretty quick in his prime and with very underrated boxing skills. His southpaw stance is going to bother Leonard (SRL was mighty relieved Hagler stupidly decided to fight the first 4 rounds orthodox), plus he's a lot stronger and Leonard won't be able to hurt him. Any time they trade Hagler will get the best of it. IMO. the best version of Hagler beats the best version of Leonard 4 times out of 5.

[donlevy]

I also think some people are underselling Hagler a bit. Yes Leonard's speed would always be an issue, but Hagler himself was pretty quick in his prime and with very underrated boxing skills. His southpaw stance is going to bother Leonard (SRL was mighty relieved Hagler stupidly decided to fight the first 4 rounds orthodox), plus he's a lot stronger and Leonard won't be able to hurt him. Any time they trade Hagler will get the best of it. IMO. the best version of Hagler beats the best version of Leonard 4 times out of 5.

 

 

Leonard used similar tactics to what Geraldo used against Hagler.Geraldo was a journeyman and yet he gave a prime Hagler more fits than a journeyman should have given him.

 

 

You don't need to hurt an opponent to outbox him(as Leonard showed when he did just that).

 

 

The only way Hagler beats leonard 4 times out of 5 is if Leonard starts imitating the one dimensional fighters that Hagler feasted on during his reign as champion.

[Wheelchair]

Hagler did struggle with awkard fighters, he's reputed to have told the then-unbeaten Herol Graham that he'd NEVER fight him. He said it to his face apparantly.

[donlevy]

I had never heard that but I do know that Graham was Hagler's mandatory.

[LondonRingRules]

Hagler did struggle with awkard fighters, he's reputed to have told the then-unbeaten Herol Graham that he'd NEVER fight him. He said it to his face apparantly.

 

------ And did he tell him why, like in " You've never beaten a top ten middleweight in your life or career and you fight in England?"

 

Now, I sympathize with you in that Graham was a superior talent, but alas, whether it was his promoters or personal mental shortcomings, he just fell short at every big opportunity. Personally, I had him beating McCallum who gets overrated by the same charge, that Hagler avoided him even if their divisions never overlapped.

 

Hagler would have never even met Graham until he came to Vegas on the undercard of McG/Cruz where he knocked out an bottom level journeyman, the same year Hagler knocked out the undefeated Ring #1, Mugabi.

 

Then the Leonard fight the next year and retirement.

 

"Yo, Herol, matey, I'm retired, finished, que lastima mi amigo. Time to find a puppy, a new dance partner, or a new hobby."

[Greb]

Leonard used similar tactics to what Geraldo used against Hagler.Geraldo was a journeyman and yet he gave a prime Hagler more fits than a journeyman should have given him.

 

 

You don't need to hurt an opponent to outbox him(as Leonard showed when he did just that).

 

 

The only way Hagler beats leonard 4 times out of 5 is if Leonard starts imitating the one dimensional fighters that Hagler feasted on during his reign as champion.

 

If a built-up lightweight in Duran could pretty well handle Leonard and Hearns could win 2/3rds of their contested rounds, it doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to see Hagler finishing the job. Leonard didn't look too hot against the unspectacular southpaw Kalule or Kevin Howard either.

 

I thought Leonard barely deserved the decision against the Hagler he did face. He certainly got all the breaks that night. The Hagler of five years earlier was quicker and sharper and his advantages in strength, power and chin would win through.

 

Bottom line is, Leonard could have made this fight when they were both in the prime, but he chose not to. That tells me a lot, as does the fact that he scuttled back into retirement instead of making the rematch.

[Wheelchair]

he scuttled back into retirement instead of making the rematch.

 

Did Marvin want a rematch? I thought he walked away from the sport in disgust, vowing never to come back.

[Greb]

he scuttled back into retirement instead of making the rematch.

 

Did Marvin want a rematch? I thought he walked away from the sport in disgust, vowing never to come back.

 

He asked for a rematch. In the end he just got tired of waiting for Leonard to grant one and retired.

[donlevy]

If a built-up lightweight in Duran could pretty well handle Leonard and Hearns could win 2/3rds of their contested rounds, it doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to see Hagler finishing the job. Leonard didn't look too hot against the unspectacular southpaw Kalule or Kevin Howard either.

 

 

 

 

Completely different styles in all cases.Leonard doesn't fight Hagler the way he did Hearns or Duran the first time.

 

 

 

Would you like me to bring up all the fights in which Hagler didn't look too spectacular in? Kalule may not have had the name recognition of some other champions of his era but he was genuine world class.

 

 

He fought Kevin Howard after a two and a half year layoff and despite getting knocked down won every round against a game,but outmatched opponent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought Leonard barely deserved the decision against the Hagler he did face. He certainly got all the breaks that night. The Hagler of five years earlier was quicker and sharper and his advantages in strength, power and chin would win through.

 

 

 

And how much quicker and sharper do you think the Ray Leonard of five years previous was? He looked pretty quick and sharp for a guy who had fought just once in five years and who during his hiatus spent most of the time in club snorting cocaine.

 

 

 

Bottom line is, Leonard could have made this fight when they were both in the prime, but he chose not to. That tells me a lot, as does the fact that he scuttled back into retirement instead of making the rematch.

 

 

 

Bottom line is,Leonard retired in 1982 with a legitimate injury.An injury that has

permanently ended the career's of many professional fighters.

[Wheelchair]

he scuttled back into retirement instead of making the rematch.

 

Did Marvin want a rematch? I thought he walked away from the sport in disgust, vowing never to come back.

 

He asked for a rematch. In the end he just got tired of waiting for Leonard to grant one and retired.

 

Cheers Greb, that must have slipped my memory.

[LondonRingRules]

He asked for a rematch. In the end he just got tired of waiting for Leonard to grant one and retired.

 

------ Ever the opportunist, Leonard announced his comeback a month after Marv retired, and supposedly made an offer that Marv refused.

 

Of course by then the title that Leonard never defended was long vacant and Marv was done playing games with him, so Leonard went on to play games with Lalonde, Hearns, and Duran, bunny hopping divisions to cherry pick a legacy he had fallen far short in. Like Ali, he could do no wrong to his fans and the press ate it up like monkeys on a bon-bon cruise.

 

The first prime fighter in his natural weightclass he faced, Norris, completely clowned him.

[Greb]

Completely different styles in all cases.Leonard doesn't fight Hagler the way he did Hearns or Duran the first time.

 

Styles has nothing to do with being manhandled and hurt numerous times by what was, let's face it, a former lightweight. Doesn't bode well for Hagler.

 

Would you like me to bring up all the fights in which Hagler didn't look too spectacular in? Kalule may not have had the name recognition of some other champions of his era but he was genuine world class.

 

You already cited Geraldo as a fight Hagler didn't look good in, so I mentioned Kalule and Howard. They all have off nights. Kalule was just a decent fighter, not what I'd call world class. If Hagler's performance against Geraldo doesn't bode well for a Leonard fight, then nor does Leonard's against Kalule.

 

And how much quicker and sharper do you think the Ray Leonard of five years previous was? He looked pretty quick and sharp for a guy who had fought just once in five years and who during his hiatus spent most of the time in club snorting cocaine.

 

While Hagler was coming off two brutal wars, the kind that ruin careers (Mugabi was never the same again) and had also been inactive for almost a year. Incidentally, in preparation for the fight, Leonard also had a couple of warm-up fights in private. And they were real fights, not just sparring.

 

If they're both quicker and sharper then it's still advantage Hagler on account of his size, strength and power. Ray can't run all night, especially over 15 as it would have been then.

 

Bottom line is,Leonard retired in 1982 with a legitimate injury.An injury that has

permanently ended the career's of many professional fighters.

 

What happened to the injury when he was making a dozen comebacks over the next decade? Do you think he'd have fought Hagler in '82 if he didn't have the eye injury? I don't.

[donlevy]

You already cited Geraldo as a fight Hagler didn't look good in, so I mentioned Kalule and Howard. They all have off nights. Kalule was just a decent fighter, not what I'd call world class. If Hagler's performance against Geraldo doesn't bode well for a Leonard fight, then nor does Leonard's against Kalule..

 

 

 

 

I cited the fight against Geraldo because of the tactics used by Geraldo.Leonard and even Duran to a certain extent would later prove that this wasn't a simple off night.If I wanted to name random fights in which Hagler look ordinary then I would have.

 

 

 

 

While Hagler was coming off two brutal wars, the kind that ruin careers (Mugabi was never the same again) and had also been inactive for almost a year. Incidentally, in preparation for the fight, Leonard also had a couple of warm-up fights in private. And they were real fights, not just sparring.

 

If they're both quicker and sharper then it's still advantage Hagler on account of his size, strength and power. Ray can't run all night, especially over 15 as it would have been then..

 

 

 

Hagler also has size,strength and power over Duran too,and yet because he was dealing with an opponent that wasn't one dimensional and who had ring smarts and forced Hagler into fighting a fight that he wasn't comfortable in fighting Duran made a competitive fight out of it and took Hagler the distance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What happened to the injury when he was making a dozen comebacks over the next decade? Do you think he'd have fought Hagler in '82 if he didn't have the eye injury? I don't.

 

 

 

His eye had healed considerably by 1984 but no doctor had supported his decision to return.The doctor who operated on his eye had publicly advised against him from doing so.His fight with Kevin Howard had been postponed until they were certain he was fit to return.