50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

[selij]

It was fifty years ago today that the late great Henry Cooper OBE (1934- 2011) became the first man to put Cassius Clay, now Muhammad Ali, on the canvas.

British, Commonwealth and European champion Cooper took on the legendary Ali at Wembley Stadium on June 18, 1963. A year later, Ali, considered to be the world's most famous man, memorably said that Cooper had "hit him so hard that his ancestors in Africa felt it."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PX8fq1TcmKM

 

source = boxrec

Edited June 18, 2013 by selij

[mofo2]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Cooper must have regretted not finishing Ali off for the rest of his life!

[WelshDevilRob]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Was never a fan of Cooper but you can't take this away from him. He almost changed the face of boxing with one left hook.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Was never a fan of Cooper but you can't take this away from him. He almost changed the face of boxing with one left hook.

 

 

A half century, I'd love to tell you some bull about how time goes by so quickly, but I know I'm an old fart and probably the only one here that watched it Live on TV. Dallen isn't here to ride shotgun on the Old Folks Wagon anymore :(

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

It was fifty years ago today that the late great Henry Cooper OBE (1934- 2011) became the first man to put Cassius Clay, now Muhammad Ali, on the canvas.

 

---- Fellow prospect Sonny Banks was the first to drop Clay long before Cooper, and it was a solid left hook that dropped him clean as can be, but Clay got up.

 

Cooper merits distinction as being the smallest man to not only drop Clay, but also the hardest he'd ever be hit in his career as well as Cooper being just about the skinniest fighter Ali ever faced, about the same as skinny Jimmy Robinson whom young Clay destroyed for his only other 1st round KO save "Sonny Liston." Thing is Robinson lost most of his fights, mostly by KO, so the differences between him and Liston are staggering.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

----

Cooper merits distinction as being the smallest man to not only drop Clay, but also the hardest he'd ever be hit in his career as well

 

Are you saying you thought Cooper's lefthook superior to Frazier's in the Fight of the Century.not only in the 15th, but even worse the one in the 11th that had Ali in as much trouble as I ever saw him?

 

P.S. Good catch on the Banks KD.

[BoztheMadman]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Cooper must have regretted not finishing Ali off for the rest of his life!

 

Yeah! Shame he didn't shut his big mouth.:boxing1:

[mofo2]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Yeah! Shame he didn't shut his big mouth.:boxing1:

I wouldn't say Cooper was a Big Mouth TBF

[BoztheMadman]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

I wouldn't say Cooper was a Big Mouth TBF

 

Nono, I meant ALI, he's the bigmouth, lol!

[mofo2]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Nono, I meant ALI, he's the bigmouth, lol!

Agreed with that, I'm one of the minority who dislikes Ali with a passion!

[BoztheMadman]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Agreed with that, I'm one of the minority who dislikes Ali with a passion!

 

Im in that minority too, even tho i admire his skills i feel he's been vastly overhyped still, mythologised out of proportion.:tsk:

[mofo2]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Im in that minority too, even tho i admire his skills i feel he's been vastly overhyped still, mythologised out of proportion.:tsk:

Yepppp that and he is a back stabbing racist weasel :boxing23:

[BoztheMadman]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Yepppp that and he is a back stabbing racist weasel :boxing23:

 

Pretty much a correct description and im sure he's suffering for that today and will suffer from guilt until he dies.

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Are you saying you thought Cooper's lefthook superior to Frazier's in the Fight of the Century.not only in the 15th, but even worse the one in the 11th that had Ali in as much trouble as I ever saw him?

 

P.S. Good catch on the Banks KD.

 

--- Young Clay would not have recovered had he been dropped in the middle of the round onto the canvas instead of into the ropes that cushioned his fall at the end of the round.

 

Still, it took the shenanigans of Dundee to buy a bit of time and recovering during the rest period. Frazier's shot was epic off the scale drama, a miracle Ali got up and made it through the round, but both were at the edge of fatigue. I like both fights as examples of good fights Ali was in, but let's face it, had Ali been coming off the Frazier fight with a loss, Liston would've have picked easier defenses rather than that version of Ali. The Ali coming off of Jones and Cooper wins was considered a taking candy from a baby bout for Liston.

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Here's an update on the Dundee "torn glove incident" a testament to the parallel idiocy and brilliance of boxrec. Poster put up a link to prove there was nothing in the next day paper mentioning the incident, ignoring the sidebar of Cooper's trainer crying foul play. Unfortunately the poster shown up immediately deleted the link proving his idiocy, but I got the essential quote from one of the crown jewels of historical info over there, Mr. Brutu:

 

Did you read the side bar article by Hugh Crook?

 

"Dundee was told to fetch another pair from the dressing room,

Which gave Clay precious extra minutes to recover from 'Enry's assault".

and

"Enry's camp rekon the delay lasted several minutes"

 

Those are direct quotes from the Wednesday June 19 1963 edition of THE SUN.

Proof that the story did not get bigger over time.

 

BTW Thank you for supplying us with some Primary evidence

that gives creedence to Sir Henry Cooper's version which he maintained over the years.

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Another update with a Sports Illustrated review of the fight where no mention is made of glove or extra time. However the article is a poor example of fight reporting, claiming Clay was showboating when he was clearly confused as to why he was getting rocked continuously, and on the notorious break the ref ducks down to talk to someone, presumably the guy sent to go find a spare pair of gloves. Since this fight is cited as the reason British rules changed to require a spare set of gloves in the ring, it would appear some irregularity went on that SI just failed to understand or bother reporting.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074938/1/index.htm

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Following in the trail of the great Mr. Brutu, I present the beeb's own article in 2003 backing up the the torn glove delay.

 

As one brilliant suspect was want to moan, "But all the article does is interview Cooper in his words telling his story yet again," ignoring that Dundee has always had Cooper's back with his own supporting version. And then a few reporters at the fight who also remember a delay, meaning that this will forever and a day be an unsolvable controversy until a guaranteed study of the best copy of the fight that the beeb or any collector that might surface can be reviewed, preferably 3-5 copies for comparison to see where problems are recurring and where they are isolated.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/2999248.stm

 

Alas, too much bother and expense for a dying sport best known for extra aces and jokers stuffed into their decks, but remember, without video time counters we wouldn't be able to verify the elasped time of the Tunney/Dempsey and Tyson/Douglas long counts, nor verify the exact time that Foreman regained his feet after the Ali knockdown.

[gavpowell]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

I don't understand why anyone is confused about the length of time between the knockdown and the start of round 5 - the BBC footage is easily available and shows a delay of about 5 seconds. If Cooper did claim it was several minutes right from the beginning, he was either an idiot or wilfully lying.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

I don't understand why anyone is confused about the length of time between the knockdown and the start of round 5 - the BBC footage is easily available and shows a delay of about 5 seconds. If Cooper did claim it was several minutes right from the beginning, he was either an idiot or wilfully lying.

 

 

Agreed, it's an urban myth profligated with the intent of making Cooper look better. This BBC report puts it at six seconds. Yes, I DO BELIEVE that Dundee stuck his finger in an existing manufacturing fault in the glove and widen it in order to gain time, it was info he stored away in his mind when he noticed the fault and filed it away in case he needed it later, Angelo Dundee was a smart cookie, and idiot would've pointed it out. It reminded me of the way Billy Martin noticed George Brett was using pine tar too high on his bat and stored that info away until Brett hit a big home run against him and THEN brought it up. I DO believe that Dundee admitted to Cooper that he widened the tear, but "Sir Henry" is embellishing the time it gained for his own purposes.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/16985467

[LondonRingRules]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Agreed, it's an urban myth profligated with the intent of making Cooper look better. This BBC report puts it at six seconds. Yes, I DO BELIEVE that Dundee stuck his finger in an existing manufacturing fault in the glove and widen it in order to gain time, it was info he stored away in his mind when he noticed the fault and filed it away in case he needed it later, Angelo Dundee was a smart cookie, and idiot would've pointed it out. It reminded me of the way Billy Martin noticed George Brett was using pine tar too high on his bat and stored that info away until Brett hit a big home run against him and THEN brought it up. I DO believe that Dundee admitted to Cooper that he widened the tear, but "Sir Henry" is embellishing the time it gained for his own purposes.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/16985467

 

--- Hah, the infamous pine tar incident that lit Brett's hemorrhoids into full flame, who can forget? Dummy ump should've banned the bat first time up since it was a foot above the regulations, but we would've missed an all time spewage from Brett.

 

Dundee is about as reliable as that ump, he simply cannot be trusted on any of his boxing observations relating to fact, but he and a few reporters say it happened in various tranmogrifications in a myriad of publications over the years, thus the controversy. The beeb has done nothing officially to mitigate the controversy, such as rumors the tape was taped over weeks later as happened in TV land then and even now presumably. Never acknowledging existence of a mastertape, ect,

 

As to your link, typical modern beeb mush, rehashing how the skilled Ali stayed out of trouble for 4 rounds until the end, when in fact 'enery ducked and slipped more Ali punches than he did 'enery's, and landed at least a dozen flush left hooks to the body, but mostly to the head landed on young Clay who was completely confused, first stages of being out on his feet. Beeb can't slip the history of the idiocy of their modern boxing coverage as has been proven repeatedly by too many others besides me.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

To be quite honest, way too much is made of the knockdown by Cooper. Clay was more embarrassed than actually hurt, I don't think he'd have had any problem whatsoever surviving, even if the bell hadn't rung. He was hurt five-times worse in the 11th Round of the Fight of the Century and also the 15th round KD of that one, and if he held off Sonny Liston while being blind for half a round, he could've survived this with no problem.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Cooper must have regretted not finishing Ali off for the rest of his life!

 

Well, like I say above, I don't think he was as close to doing so as Henry thinks he was, but you might be right that he THINKS he had him where he wanted him and it's easier to blame the glove than himself.

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

I'm NOT a big Ali fan btw, I thought he was humorous during his second run, when the loudmouth routine kind of turned into comedy shtick, but I disliked the racial aspects and his treatment of Frazier, and as I've mentioned a thousand times, I thought he got undeserved credit for being a social icon with regard to the draft/anti-war movement as he had no choice on that one, the black muslims would've killed him instantly had he been inducted into the Army. He took advantage of willing believers/peaceniks and pulled a con, and they bought into it and made him a folk hero.

[gavpowell]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

The master tape was not destroyed -this thread (http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum/showthread.php?1156-Muhammad-Ali-vrs-Henry-Cooper-1%281963%29/page2) from Cyberboxingzone contains a contribution from one Steve Lott, who was responsible for editing the tape when it was released to the public.

 

As much as it would suit LRR's constant agenda to diminish Ali, there was no huge delay.

 

I have just screened the video of the original BBC telecast of the Clay - Cooper 1st fight.

This master is un-edited and uncut in any way. According to the live British commentator, “Copper hit Clay about 2 seconds before the bell ending round 4.” You can’t hear the bell because of the crowd noise but Clay does get right up and begins to walk directly to his corner so we could assume that commentator is correct in his call.

 

I used the commentators remark about the bell and cued the time code on the video machine.

 

The counter reads Hours 00 Minutes 21 Seconds 30

 

The bell beginning round 5 is definitely audible.

 

The counter at this point reads Hours 00 Minutes 22 Seconds 38

 

When the bell sounds Clay immediately leaves his corner to start round 5.

 

Total time between rounds : 68 seconds

 

There was a remark made by one of the group about the different films that were edited together that make the video look odd. That was an excellent observation. The Clay - Cooper fight was first released for TV by Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs back in 1973. But when I edited the film I had to use two different versions. The master version did not have round 5. I had to use a copy version of round 5 to complete the film for release. When editing these two together they look a little different in quality. As an editing point I used the motion of the left arm of one of Cooper’s corner men. He puts it on the ring rope just before the beginning of round 5. This is where I edited the two films together. I might have gained or lost 10 - 12 film frames ( about half a second ) in the edit. But not more.

 

Steve Lott

[davemurphy]

Re: 50 Years Today Since Cooper floored Clay

 

Steve Lott is pretty well respected in most boxing circles (see below). If he says he edited out only a few seconds, I believe him.

 

http://boxinghalloffame.com/boxing-hall-of-fame-steve-lott-president/