The Welsh Dragon: An analysis

[Skav]

The moment Joe Calzaghe's name was read out as the winner minutes after going toe to toe with Chris Eubank, I knew he had the skills to be something very special. Blessed with dazzling speed, a high work rate, a solid chin and concussive power in the years before his brittle hands forced him to settle for laborious points decisions, Calzaghe went on to become known as one of history's greatest boxing super-middleweights!

 

http://www.ringnews24.com/index.php/boxing-news/61302-the-welsh-dragon-an-analysis.html#axzz23APiihBH

[Ton]

The most frustrating career in british boxing history.

 

I admire Calzaghe's boxing skills and ability but thats about it. His hunger and desire weren't there and he never seemed to be that bothered about things. Came across as a bit smug at times also, and not overly likeable.

[Jayme718]

Have to say im stuck in the middle when it comes to Joe. As a fighter he was quick and slick, and could adapt to the situation better than the majority in recent history. You don't become a unified champion, with as many title defenses without having bloody good skills.

 

His victories over Kessler and Hopkins i think define him as a fighter.

 

I hear people mention Jeff Lacy and Chris Eubank in the same breath, but i don't consider them defining as such really. My reasoning for this is simple. Lacy had never really beaten anyone and was a bit of a Brawler/plodder with his best attribute being his power, which as we know if you a smart boxer with good movement and speed can be in out and gone before a shot has even been landed. Lacy was yet another victim of the Hype train and as we saw not in the same league as Joe. Eubank was Joes break out party, Skills diminished and a shadow of what he was once.

 

The same could be said of Roy Jones Jr.... In fact I've never heard anyone say that was a legit fight you couldn't even consider Roy a viable threat to anything other than himself by that point.

 

So I say his two best wins were against Kessler who at the time was an undefeated and unified champion (Pretty much same as lacy except not unified) but it was more what Kessler did after that adds to Joes win over him. Hopkins though is a different kettle of fish having being a multi weight champion, who at the time was considered shot by more than a few well known names in the boxing world. Clearly not the case as he has gone on to prove otherwise beating the likes of Kelly Pavlik who was undefeated and had twice beaten the guy who had twice beaten Hopkins and at that point was considered 'The Man' at 160. And beaten the then recognized light heavyweight champ Jean Pascal to become the oldest champion in boxing history.

 

So them fights i rank as his best...

 

Now my issue with Joes career and the reason i think he was and still is over rated is because of the level of competition he faced.... the 168 division was rife with huge talent in those days. With names like Steve Collins, Roy Jones, James Toney to name only a few. Yet joe decided to stay at home and fight the likes of Tocker Pudwill and Mario Veit. Ok so they were decent fighters but to be considered an all time great you have to fight other all timers in their primes, not shells of once great guys.... Something that i consider Joe to have done only Once in his Career.

 

You look at Other great fighters like Ali as an example faced pretty much everyone around, Feared guy's like Liston, Frazer, Foreman who had steamrollered absolutely everyone else before Ali. He was huge underdog in all 3 of their first fights and yet he still managed to beat them (ok not Frazer 1 but 2+3)

 

Beating the likes of Pudwill, Lacy and the ghost of Joy Jones do not make you a legend.

 

so In my opinion i consider Joe to be one of the better fighters of his generation, i think that's a given. his record 46-0 speaks for its self, however it could have been a different story had he taken the risks others did and faced the likes of a prime Jones, Toney, Johnson etc. I think because of that he has tarnished what he could have been. I Respect everything he has achived in the sport, but to consider him a legend i think is going overboard.

 

Joe was a great fighter no doubt, but a legend he is not.

[WelshDevilRob]

Have to say im stuck in the middle when it comes to Joe. As a fighter he was quick and slick, and could adapt to the situation better than the majority in recent history. You don't become a unified champion, with as many title defenses without having bloody good skills.

 

His victories over Kessler and Hopkins i think define him as a fighter.

 

I hear people mention Jeff Lacy and Chris Eubank in the same breath, but i don't consider them defining as such really. My reasoning for this is simple. Lacy had never really beaten anyone and was a bit of a Brawler/plodder with his best attribute being his power, which as we know if you a smart boxer with good movement and speed can be in out and gone before a shot has even been landed. Lacy was yet another victim of the Hype train and as we saw not in the same league as Joe. Eubank was Joes break out party, Skills diminished and a shadow of what he was once.

 

The same could be said of Roy Jones Jr.... In fact I've never heard anyone say that was a legit fight you couldn't even consider Roy a viable threat to anything other than himself by that point.

 

So I say his two best wins were against Kessler who at the time was an undefeated and unified champion (Pretty much same as lacy except not unified) but it was more what Kessler did after that adds to Joes win over him. Hopkins though is a different kettle of fish having being a multi weight champion, who at the time was considered shot by more than a few well known names in the boxing world. Clearly not the case as he has gone on to prove otherwise beating the likes of Kelly Pavlik who was undefeated and had twice beaten the guy who had twice beaten Hopkins and at that point was considered 'The Man' at 160. And beaten the then recognized light heavyweight champ Jean Pascal to become the oldest champion in boxing history.

 

So them fights i rank as his best...

 

Now my issue with Joes career and the reason i think he was and still is over rated is because of the level of competition he faced.... the 168 division was rife with huge talent in those days. With names like Steve Collins, Roy Jones, James Toney to name only a few. Yet joe decided to stay at home and fight the likes of Tocker Pudwill and Mario Veit. Ok so they were decent fighters but to be considered an all time great you have to fight other all timers in their primes, not shells of once great guys.... Something that i consider Joe to have done only Once in his Career.

 

You look at Other great fighters like Ali as an example faced pretty much everyone around, Feared guy's like Liston, Frazer, Foreman who had steamrollered absolutely everyone else before Ali. He was huge underdog in all 3 of their first fights and yet he still managed to beat them (ok not Frazer 1 but 2+3)

 

Beating the likes of Pudwill, Lacy and the ghost of Joy Jones do not make you a legend.

 

so In my opinion i consider Joe to be one of the better fighters of his generation, i think that's a given. his record 46-0 speaks for its self, however it could have been a different story had he taken the risks others did and faced the likes of a prime Jones, Toney, Johnson etc. I think because of that he has tarnished what he could have been. I Respect everything he has achived in the sport, but to consider him a legend i think is going overboard.

 

Joe was a great fighter no doubt, but a legend he is not.

 

I'm going from memory of previous posts here but:

 

Steve Collins pulled out of the fights with Calzaghe, that's why Joe fought Eubank for Vacant WBO title.

 

Roy Jones Jnr had moved up to Light Heavyweight and won a belt there a YEAR before Calzaghe fought for the Vacant WBO Super-Middleweight title - When was Joe mean't to fight RJJ? RJJ never fought the more established Benn and Eubank - so why was he going to fight a rookie like Joe? Different weights and Where was the money in a Jones vs Calzaghe contest back then?

 

James Toney - weighed in at the Light Heavyweight division in 1995. 2 Years before Joe won his FIRST title at Super-Middleweight. When was Joe meant to fight Toney?

 

To say, that Joe should have fought these guys and to discredit him for not is silly.

[gavpowell]

Collins retired rather than face Calzaghe, presumably deciding he'd feasted on the reitrement brigade so he might as well step aside rather than fight someone approaching his prime.

 

Can't blame him for Ottke when Warren published a fax in boxing news showing he'd offer £1m to Ottke to fight Calzaghe in Germany, and Ottke said no. Likewise Hopkins agreeing the fight and then pulling out to face the legendary Carl Daniels.

 

Calzaghe did have plenty of opportunities to move up to light-heavy though - witness the way he psised Johnson about, kept mooting a Woods fight. Whether that would ever have led to a Jones fight, who knows, but Calzaghe got way too fond of his WBO strap and for a long time we gave Warren the lion's share of the blame. Only later did we realise Calzaghe wasn't all that ambitious himself.

[WelshDevilRob]

Collins retired rather than face Calzaghe, presumably deciding he'd feasted on the reitrement brigade so he might as well step aside rather than fight someone approaching his prime.

 

Can't blame him for Ottke when Warren published a fax in boxing news showing he'd offer £1m to Ottke to fight Calzaghe in Germany, and Ottke said no. Likewise Hopkins agreeing the fight and then pulling out to face the legendary Carl Daniels.

 

Calzaghe did have plenty of opportunities to move up to light-heavy though - witness the way he psised Johnson about, kept mooting a Woods fight. Whether that would ever have led to a Jones fight, who knows, but Calzaghe got way too fond of his WBO strap and for a long time we gave Warren the lion's share of the blame. Only later did we realise Calzaghe wasn't all that ambitious himself.

 

I agree with the knocks against Joe and there are plenty. I just don't agree with these mystical fights to be made that were in Joe's hands.

 

I don't agree with this notion that he avoided Johnson - the guy couldn't beat Clinton Woods.

[iamasadlittleboy]

He did mess Johnson about on a number of occasions.

[gavpowell]

I don't agree with this notion that he avoided Johnson - the guy couldn't beat Clinton Woods.

 

Call it what you like, but the fight was signed at least twice and on both occasions Calzaghe pulled out - I seem to recall Johnson was asked again and said he was tired of waiting. And Johnson did beat Woods twice, albeit on one of those occasions losing his win to a hometown decision.

[Ton]

I'd say his hunger and desire to face the best can be questioned. If he was serious about gaining maximum recognition and making a proper name for himself he'd have got himself to the States earlier. People may say "he held the title, why should he travel blah blah" but like it or not, the States is the place to go if you want to be revered.

 

Joe got himself over there eventually, when he realised defending his belt in Wales for 10 years wasn't that big of a splash.

[Ton]

As for discussing who was offered fights and who refused and such. Is there ever a way to 100% be aware of these things. I know Warren has come out and said a few things about Joe being a liability to turn up to fights or sign contracts etc, but that was after Joe had fucked him off.

[davemurphy]

I'm like our new member Dark Destroyer in that I'm stuck in the middle with regard to Calzaghe. I blame Frank Warren for his not fighting the top names when he should have, but in fairness to him he DID step up to the table and took them on when he finally started to pressure Warren, and he never lost inside the Ring. I think he's certainly a Hall of Famer, but historically it's always going to rough for Joe, being one of boxings VERY FEW undefeated world champions is going to be met with some skepticism in many quarters.

[gavpowell]

I blame Frank Warren for his not fighting the top names when he should have, but in fairness to him he DID step up to the table and took them on when he finally started to pressure Warren

 

You say that, but Calzaghe admitted himself he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight, and of course we saw the sort of opposition he wanted to fight when he finished his career against a shot Roy Jones, having previously ridiculed him as a possible opponent. I think Calzaghe and Warren suited each other rather nicely when it came to matchmaking.

[WelshDevilRob]

I don't agree with this notion that he avoided Johnson - the guy couldn't beat Clinton Woods.

 

Call it what you like, but the fight was signed at least twice and on both occasions Calzaghe pulled out - I seem to recall Johnson was asked again and said he was tired of waiting. And Johnson did beat Woods twice, albeit on one of those occasions losing his win to a hometown decision.

 

Calzaghe had a history of injuries and setbacks. The one time he did his ankle in running.

 

He should have fought Johnson but with the pull-outs, I think the promoter gave up as it was hard to sell once Joe was fit. Joe did earlier in his career beat the heavily hyped, Johnson conqueror Omar Sheika but people forget that.

[WelshDevilRob]

I blame Frank Warren for his not fighting the top names when he should have, but in fairness to him he DID step up to the table and took them on when he finally started to pressure Warren

 

You say that, but Calzaghe admitted himself he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight, and of course we saw the sort of opposition he wanted to fight when he finished his career against a shot Roy Jones, having previously ridiculed him as a possible opponent. I think Calzaghe and Warren suited each other rather nicely when it came to matchmaking.

 

Pull out cos of a hand injury. Any boxing fan knows that he has been plagued by those injuries. People questioned the substance of his hand injuries and then he broke one against Evans Ashira. Its, ok to put down the opponent but it is some achievement to beat someone when you only have one hand.

[gavpowell]

Yes, the Ashira fight was a good performance considering the hand injury, but again, he insisted on putting Lacy off to have Ashira as a tune-up fight first, and could easily have blown the whole show.

 

I don't suggest Calzaghe was ever likely to lose to Johnson(indeed, apart from a peak Roy Jones I'm not sure I can think of anyone he would likely have lost to) but his injuries always seemed to come ahead of the significant fights. How many of his WBO mandatories did he have to postpone due to injury?

[Jayme718]

I'm not saying should have faced them specific people, they were used as an example. My point being there were bigger fish than the guys Joe faced up until the end of his career.

 

As for Jones I'm not saying they should have fought years before, the point i was making was if he had it would haven't been the walk in the park their fight was. The fact Joe tried make look legit beating a now gun shy shadow of a once skilled champ was where i was going there.

 

The fact remains that Joe had two really meaningful fights in Hopkins and kessler and chose to stay at home and take easy defences against outmatched guys when he could have took the risk and faced bigger profile harder fights....but didn't.

 

Going 46-0 achievement in its self but when comes against about 40 (being generous) over matched domestic/contender status fighter it takes away the shine

 

Not everyone will share my opinions but when see Joe i think just how much further his skills and legacy could have gone, did he ever reach his full potential.

[Skav]

The two boxers that people mention the most when discussing who Joe missed in their primes are often Jones and Johnson. Let's not forget that RJJ also had a little "Calzaghe" in him.

[gavpowell]

Roy Jones was a superstar though, raking in the money while universally acknowledged as ruling his division and owning all the belts available. Calzaghe did not have that luxury.

[irondave85]

Roy Jones was a superstar though, raking in the money while universally acknowledged as ruling his division and owning all the belts available. Calzaghe did not have that luxury.

 

Actually, that's a bit of a myth.

 

A lot of Jones' title defences took place in boxing backwaters like Louisiana, Portland, Indianapolis etc., simply because the big venues weren't interested in him for the most part. One of the few times Jones appeared at a big venue was when he defended his titles against the late JC Gonzalez on a big show with Morales-Chi and Lewis-Mayorga. The crowed booed Jones out of the building during that stinker.

 

Jones' fight with Ruiz was a genuinely huge event, but that was because the public were fascinated by the idea of a dominant light-heavyweight champion moving up to face a heavyweight champion (of course, Ruiz was not the real heavyweight champion, but that didn't matter to the casual public).

 

Aside from that though, Jones never really achieved true superstardom. He rarely featured on PPV and was never truly adored by the public.

[gavpowell]

Oh really? Well if that's the case, I withdraw the argument in favour of Jones - I only had access to Boxing News, bbc and a few boxing stes at the time and he seemed to be revered, so I assumed he was packing in the crowds.

[davemurphy]

I blame Frank Warren for his not fighting the top names when he should have, but in fairness to him he DID step up to the table and took them on when he finally started to pressure Warren

 

You say that, but Calzaghe admitted himself he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight, and of course we saw the sort of opposition he wanted to fight when he finished his career against a shot Roy Jones, having previously ridiculed him as a possible opponent. I think Calzaghe and Warren suited each other rather nicely when it came to matchmaking.

 

Yeah, I did criticize him after he beat Hopkins and then seemed to backtrack and want to fight Roy, especially since other more obvious opponents were waiting to fight him at the time. I wasn't aware he tried to wiggle out of fighting Lacy, that's disappointing news to me. Perhaps I'm giving Frank too much of the blame.

[gavpowell]

I think it's an extract from his book where he says he was all set to pull out 10 days before the fight citing a hand injury, but Enzo and Frank convinced him that, as they'd already cancelled twice, if he did it again he'd be known as a ducker, so Calzaghe went through with it in the end.

[WelshDevilRob]

Yeah, he was going to pull out of the Lacy fight as he didn't feel his hands were upto it but Enzo talked him round.

[LondonRingRules]

A lot of Jones' title defences took place in boxing backwaters like Louisiana, Portland, Indianapolis etc., simply because the big venues weren't interested in him for the most part. One of the few times Jones appeared at a big venue was when he defended his titles against the late JC Gonzalez on a big show with Morales-Chi and Lewis-Mayorga. The crowed booed Jones out of the building during that stinker.

 

Jones' fight with Ruiz was a genuinely huge event, but that was because the public were fascinated by the idea of a dominant light-heavyweight champion moving up to face a heavyweight champion (of course, Ruiz was not the real heavyweight champion, but that didn't matter to the casual public).

 

Aside from that though, Jones never really achieved true superstardom. He rarely featured on PPV and was never truly adored by the public.

 

----- Dave, while your points have some merit, they ignore the larger picture that Jones was as widely touted as most any superstar in boxing.

 

At one point he was considered to be the most untouchable best ever, respect that almost never is accorded to current champs no matter how great they turn out to be in retrospect. Had he retired like his fans wanted before the unfortunate Tarver rematch, he'd still be at the top of every all time P4P list if not #1.

 

Jones took his defenses on a tour of the country, something he could afford since he was getting $5mil/per fight from HBO, hardly chump change being the #1 HBO fighter considering the low caliber of the LH division after he sawed off all the dead wood. The only guys making big PPV money were Tyson and Fields, and DLH of course. Jones also has his own promotions, and we know the history of boxing when it comes to small promoters.

 

Had Jones taken the next step and defended his heavy title, Corrie Sanders and Lewis were heavy favs, he might have set the all time PPV record he was so hot with the public. Where do you think Floydy got his $100mil demand to fight Manny from? Roy was the first to make the demand, and he came closer than anyone yet, but pissed it all away to be beset upon by critic botflys in one of the more baffling boxing declines of genius.

 

Super Joe was never seriously considered until they did fight, a convergence of 2 stars heading in opposite directions as happens all the time. Still, Jones almost whacked Joe outta there, the worst I'd ever seen him hurt before, a precursor to the Mosley/Floydy fight.

[davemurphy]

I think it's an extract from his book where he says he was all set to pull out 10 days before the fight citing a hand injury, but Enzo and Frank convinced him that, as they'd already cancelled twice, if he did it again he'd be known as a ducker, so Calzaghe went through with it in the end.

 

Thanks, Gav and Rob. Do either of you guys remember what the reason was for the first two cancellations? Was it also injuries?