Are "Question Marks" Important For Boxing?

[grapevine241]

a question mark is the circumstances of a fight beyond the basic statistics (like time of KO, scorecards, weigh-in weights, titles on the line, etc.)

 

for example, question marks can be:

 

james toney having to drop over 50 pounds before he fought roy jones

shane mosley using steroids for the second de la hoya fight

roberto duran's stomach cramps in the second leonard fight

someone throwing a cup of beer at naseem hamed before the barerra fight

richard steele stopping chavez-taylor with 1 second left

margarito's possibly loaded hand wraps for the cotto fight

jones coming down from heavyweight for tarver and johnson

tarver coming down from heavyweight for hopkins

pavlik being sick and moving up for the hopkins fight

paul williams getting dome right before the quintana fight

mayweather beating marquez 3-4 weight classes above his natural weight

diego corrales going back down in weight to fight floyd mayweather

 

etc.

 

so when you talk about a fight historically is the question mark important, or does a win=a win, no matter how you put it???

[Faulks]

interesting Topic mate.

 

A win is a win at the end of the day and that shows on every fighters record. But alot of the question marks you have raised could also be seen as excuses could they not?

 

The JMM v PBF one is a good example

[WelshDevilRob]

I suppose each circumstance/rumour has to be looked at individually.

 

With Toney I'd see it as just an excuse - he knew beforehand how tough a fight with RJJ would be. I just think he got beaten by the better fighter.

 

Same with Duran against Leonard - Duran gave up because of frustration rather than cramps.

 

I can see and believe that RJJ losing weight coming backdown from Heavyweight had a bad effect on him. Losing alot of weight for a fight is never good and Roy didn't look the same fighter again.

[McBride]

I suppose each circumstance/rumour has to be looked at individually.

 

With Toney I'd see it as just an excuse - he knew beforehand how tough a fight with RJJ would be. I just think he got beaten by the better fighter.

 

Same with Duran against Leonard - Duran gave up because of frustration rather than cramps.

 

I can see and believe that RJJ losing weight coming backdown from Heavyweight had a bad effect on him. Losing alot of weight for a fight is never good and Roy didn't look the same fighter again.

 

By that logic Rob, isn't it also Jones's fault because ne knew that unless he stayed at heavy where he'd have to fight some real fighters and not just plums like Ruiz, he'd have to lose that weight again to fight in his more comfortable division? mlol/

 

As for Hamed I thought it was piss the guy threw at him, or am i confused with golota?

 

Regarding Chavez / Taylor, a second was more than enough time for JCC to hit him again. Who's to say that the state Meldrick was in at the time wouldn't have caused permanent damage if that had happened. Refs protect fighters, not clocks.

[WelshDevilRob]

I suppose each circumstance/rumour has to be looked at individually.

 

With Toney I'd see it as just an excuse - he knew beforehand how tough a fight with RJJ would be. I just think he got beaten by the better fighter.

 

Same with Duran against Leonard - Duran gave up because of frustration rather than cramps.

 

I can see and believe that RJJ losing weight coming backdown from Heavyweight had a bad effect on him. Losing alot of weight for a fight is never good and Roy didn't look the same fighter again.

 

By that logic Rob, isn't it also Jones's fault because ne knew that unless he stayed at heavy where he'd have to fight some real fighters and not just plums like Ruiz, he'd have to lose that weight again to fight in his more comfortable division? mlol/

 

As for Hamed I thought it was piss the guy threw at him, or am i confused with golota?

 

Regarding Chavez / Taylor, a second was more than enough time for JCC to hit him again. Who's to say that the state Meldrick was in at the time wouldn't have caused permanent damage if that had happened. Refs protect fighters, not clocks.

 

Hi McBride,

 

Just going through old topics and this is a Great one.

 

Roy Jones did he have the same reaction as Chris Byrd when moving backdown in weight? Lack of strength.

Jones probably was arrogant and didn't think it would affect him but Yes he did flee HW when the possibility of Lennox Lewis was brought up.

[WelshDevilRob]

Re: Are "Question Marks" Important For Boxing?

 

a question mark is the circumstances of a fight beyond the basic statistics (like time of KO, scorecards, weigh-in weights, titles on the line, etc.)

 

for example, question marks can be:

 

 

paul williams getting dome right before the quintana fight

 

etc.

 

so when you talk about a fight historically is the question mark important, or does a win=a win, no matter how you put it???

 

Great topic, mate.

 

Whats dome? Drugs?

[LondonRingRules]

I suppose each circumstance/rumour has to be looked at individually.

 

With Toney I'd see it as just an excuse - he knew beforehand how tough a fight with RJJ would be. I just think he got beaten by the better fighter.

 

Same with Duran against Leonard - Duran gave up because of frustration rather than cramps.

 

I can see and believe that RJJ losing weight coming backdown from Heavyweight had a bad effect on him. Losing alot of weight for a fight is never good and Roy didn't look the same fighter again.

 

------- Keep in mind the "excuses" is a debatable term meaning different things to different folks.

 

Clearly Toney had a weight problem for the whole of his career, so weight problems really ain't an excuse in my book, it's his way of life, and he won most of those bouts, but if he loses, then it's an excuse?

 

Not in my book, but if I cite the weight problems as a matter of well known fact, the usual suspects will claim I'm making an excuse for Toney, when nothing can be further from the truth.

 

Duran, eh? I feel a long wind coming. We have Duran's post fight testimony with his camp being interviewed by Cosell supporting "cramps," code for "craps." Also have corroborating testimony by Randy Gordon, former Ring editor/NSAC commish who was in the training room when Duran entered after the fight and saw and heard "everything."

 

Regardless, clearly Duran was about as active as a fatted, fried, French slug for the Leonard rematch, so one supposes something bad happened to him in the interim.

 

As to Roy, the weight loss thing is nonsense. Roy's LH ring weight was 185+ lbs, his street weight 185-190 lbs, and he weighed in for Ruiz in street clothes at 193. Now, "supposedly" Jones was upset over the weight, claiming he was 200, and indeed, HBO put him on a bathroom scale come fightnight and 199 is what he supposedly weighed, but who can really say when we have the official weight?

 

Every bodybuilder knows it's easy to lose unnatural muscle once you stop the specialized training. If 175 was a problem, the bigger fights were at Cruiser against unbeaten Jirov or the Toney rematch, not the unknown clown, Tarver. whom he beat the first time around. Jones never moved up again, proving that weight was never the problem. That was just silly stuff made up as an excuse that gets repeated like Elvis rumours.

 

Roy was starting to lay on the ropes and do the ropadope thing, probably because his legs and reflexes were going out after a long ama/pro career. Not only, but he was touted as the best fighter ever, able to beat up any fighter who ever existed from middle through heavy, and it just tipped his oversized ego, making a mess.

 

He thought he could just show up and win. NOT!

[Wheelchair]

Trouble is, alot of fighters like to cry wolf when things don't go their way. It can be hard to tell truth from fiction.

 

If everything was clear-cut though, things would be a little boring, some controversy is always needed to arouse the interest.

[iamasadlittleboy]

I love the what if's (what if Liston had been given his chance about 3 years earlier? What if Jeffries v Johnson took place in 1905ish? Willis v Dempsey? etc) but the sport needs these questions as conversations points