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Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez Moves Into Top Spot

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  • Saul 'Canelo' Alvarez Moves Into Top Spot

    The WBO light-heavyweight world champion has climbed above Terence Crawford to sit as the pound for pound number 1 fighter in the world as of November 2019 according to Ring Magazine. ESPN have him at number 3 but which do you agree with?

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  • #2
    Neither and both. Sick to death of all this P4P bollocks. The strict definition has been lost, and each and every organization - Boxrec, The Ring, ESPN etc etc has applied its own formulae and criteria on top of the basic definition until its become a mockery and is now just a buzzword used by half-baked commentators like Sky Sports' Adam Smith and BT Sports' John Rawling to con the general non-converted public into thinking they actually know what they're talking about.

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    • #3
      --- Canelo #1 for donkey years in Boxrec too.

      Selj sounds ready to provide us the unwashed KO rubes his own expert top 10 to email to Boxrec, The Ring, ESPN etc etc

      Comment


      • #4
        As you well know Bobby, if the one and only strict rule of P4P definition was applied here, I would gladly furnish one and all with mine. But it dont - so I wont...and haven't for years.

        I can easily do you a Top 10 'Current Fave Boxers' list - but actually call it a P4P list like everyone else on here does (?).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by selij View Post
          Neither and both. Sick to death of all this P4P bollocks. The strict definition has been lost, and each and every organization - Boxrec, The Ring, ESPN etc etc has applied its own formulae and criteria on top of the basic definition until its become a mockery and is now just a buzzword used by half-baked commentators like Sky Sports' Adam Smith and BT Sports' John Rawling to con the general non-converted public into thinking they actually knows what thery're talking about.
          Was there ever really a strict definition?

          AFAIK, it's always been complete bollocks. (Although kinda' fun to think about, in a non-serious way.)

          Comment


          • #6
            --- I've addressed p4p concept for these many years, starting with this article-
            Modern P4P Rankings–Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather Jr

            Posted on June 11, 2011 | 6 Comments | Edit
            by Bobby Mac

            OK, let’s start with a brief primer of the history of the P4P concept that is poorly understood by modern boxing fans who too often only want to justify their favorite P4P fighters rather than to impartially compare top fighters across the divisions. Other less than honorable fans are only bent on destructive argumentation lacking any merit based on their personal dislike of certain fighters that may even bleed into unseemly hatred for a fighter.
            Sugar Ray Robinson
            Sugar Ray Robinson

            The “modern” concept of boxing “Pound for Pound” dates back to a series of many P4P tributes to the incomparable Sugar Ray Robinson who turned pro to much acclaim after an undefeated amateur career. I’d imagine there are earlier references to the concept of P4P framed in different terminology probably going back to the 18th century bare knucks era and beyond to the David vs Goliath era and then beyond that.

            Every new generation tends to rediscover a concept to reframe for their own understanding, leaving the original concept in an increasingly fuzzy state. For the blessed purpose of establishing a set of base level P4P guidelines, let us start with a representative comment penned a few years later in 1951 by Wilfred Smith that is typical of the P4P accolades heaped on Sugar Ray Robinson:

            “Ray Robinson has been called the finest fighting man for his pounds in the history of pugilism.”

            The early P4P concept incorporates the values of weight disparities, excellence of application, and skills. The mid 1900s concept of weight is important because the original weight class dating back to the days of James Figg was an open one, i.e., the fighters could weigh whatever they wanted which ultimately became the heavyweight division by way of general consensus. Naturally folks took note when a smaller fighter challenged a bigger one, so fighters were weighed to satisfy curiosity, but in truth, the ritual was constructed in order to harden the betting line since the bigger fighter usually prevailed.

            Weight stipulations begin working their way down from that original open class in order to more closely match up fighters of different weights that eventually began to be known as middleweight and welterweight divisions that were further split into the some 17-18 modern weight classes we have today. Weights and ages of fighters were almost important as the claimed records of the fighters in those unregulated bare-knuckled days.

            Sugar Ray Robinson fought in the middle range of modern divisions, starting his career at 130 lbs and working up to 160lbs at his peak. He was often matched against larger fighters as was the norm back then, and was always victorious save the first Lamotta loss, his only anomaly in his first 140 fights. The importance of weight was such that appropriately skilled fighters with an established record of excellence across these weight disparities were naturally lauded as the top fighters. The thinking was` that when proportionately sized up and down various weight classes in his era, Robinson could beat every fighter regardless of weight, the ultimate fantasy culmination of a rabid boxing enthusiast come true.

            Objective interpretation of the attributes needed today when comparing fighters across widely disparate weight classes would follow:

            1. SIZE, as in results of fights with obvious height, weight, and reach disparities that are the historical holy trinity of significant boxing physical measurement records. Successfully moving up through weight classes is very important to today’s generation of more heavily regulated fighters who usually are no longer allowed to make matches against much heavier opponents save the open heavyweight division that sees the dramatic size differences..

            2. Skills, as in the number of skills and strategic nuance the fighter shows on offense and defense.

            3. Dominance, as in the excellence of application of natural talents and abilities over opponents.

            4. Quality of Opposition as in a record full of quality, ranked or otherwise highly regarded fighters.

            5. Power, as in genuine knockout power that takes the result out of the hands of subjective judges.

            OK, now with the essential historical background and modern concepts of P4P established, how about we move to the main course, the meat of this P4P debate, Pacquiao vs Mayweather. To get to the main course, I have to make proper preparations such as asking the essential question that nobody ever bothers to ask and then look at the answers.

            Exactly what are the actual Ring P4P histories of Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr?


            More here as specifically applying to the Manny vs Floydy debate:

            https://roberto00.wordpress.com/2011...mayweather-jr/

            I agree with the Ring Top 5

            Boxrec top 5:

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LondonRingRules View Post
              OK, let’s start with a brief primer of the history of the P4P concept that is poorly understood by modern boxing fans who too often only want to justify their favorite P4P fighters rather than to impartially compare top fighters across the divisions. Other less than honorable fans are only bent on destructive argumentation lacking any merit based on their personal dislike of certain fighters that may even bleed into unseemly hatred for a fighter.

              Objective interpretation of the attributes needed today when comparing fighters across widely disparate weight classes would follow:

              1. SIZE, as in results of fights with obvious height, weight, and reach disparities that are the historical holy trinity of significant boxing physical measurement records. Successfully moving up through weight classes is very important to today’s generation of more heavily regulated fighters who usually are no longer allowed to make matches against much heavier opponents save the open heavyweight division that sees the dramatic size differences..

              2. Skills, as in the number of skills and strategic nuance the fighter shows on offense and defense.

              3. Dominance, as in the excellence of application of natural talents and abilities over opponents.

              4. Quality of Opposition as in a record full of quality, ranked or otherwise highly regarded fighters.

              5. Power, as in genuine knockout power that takes the result out of the hands of subjective judges.

              I agree with the Ring Top 5
              Marvellous work, and this is indeed what it is today and based SOLELY on that criteria I agree fully that Saul Alvarez is indeed number 1 in the world P4P. The Boxrec rankings are trash as far as I'm concerned and in the Ring's top 5 I'd switch #2 and #3 around.

              Great post, thanks for taking the time it's an enjoyable read and sets out exactly what it means to be P4P in 2019.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LondonRingRules View Post
                Exactly what are the actual Ring P4P histories of Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr?
                The Pacman link doesn't work and the Money May link takes us to his homepage (or what looks like it) are the links ones you wanted us to look into or were they just copied in from somewhere else inadvertently? Would be good to see what it's all about, this would be before GB took control of the Ring too right?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why would you have do well in multiple weight classes to be the P4P King? Doesn't that literally negate the entire premise?

                  And why is KO power so iportant? Smaller fighters naturally have less KO power overall, wit a few exception here & there. So a supremely sklled BW, who dominates a stacked division for ten years, but never moves up and only has a 30% KO ration, can never be considered the P4P king?


                  Like I said, it's ALWAYS been bullocks. There's just no sense to it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Undefeated View Post

                    The Pacman link doesn't work and the Money May link takes us to his homepage (or what looks like it) are the links ones you wanted us to look into or were they just copied in from somewhere else inadvertently? Would be good to see what it's all about, this would be before GB took control of the Ring too right?
                    --- I generally include boxrec name links to their records for any fighter I mention. Looks to me like someone of a higher order managed to change the links. Never seen that before, so it's a bit disturbing that someone with IT skills would bother with such petty petulance.

                    Cable, the KO is generally the most definitive result in boxing...duh! I examined the wide variety of notions of p4p. Today, moving up divisions is much bigger, but I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion as a must have.

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                    • #11
                      PS Not guilty - I have not edited anything Roberto.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by selij View Post
                        PS Not guilty - I have not edited anything Roberto.
                        --- Not talking about this site, I'm talking my wordpress site where my fighter links still exist, yet do not click to their boxrec records but instead to a dead link or Floydy home page.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LondonRingRules View Post

                          --- Not talking about this site, I'm talking my wordpress site where my fighter links still exist, yet do not click to their boxrec records but instead to a dead link or Floydy home page.
                          That proper smacks of Big Brother...……..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Transnational's last P4P rankings (before Inoue vs Donaire)
                            Rank Name Nationality Record Division
                            1 Saul Alvarez * MEX 53-1-2 (36) Middleweight/Light Heavyweight
                            2 Naoya Inoue JPN 19-0-0 (16) Bantamweight
                            3 Vasiliy Lomachenko UKR 14-1-0 (10) Lightweight
                            4 Terence Crawford USA 35-0-0 (26) Welterweight
                            5 Oleksandr Usyk UKR 17-0-0 (13) Heavyweight
                            6 Gennady Golovkin KAZ 38-1-1 (34) Middleweight
                            7 Juan Francisco Estrada * MEX 40-3-0 (27) Jr. Bantamweight
                            8 Errol Spence Jr. USA 25-0-0 (21) Welterweight
                            9 Manny Pacquiao PHI 62-7-2 (39) Welterweight
                            10 Josh Taylor SCO 16-0-0 (12) Jr. Welterweight

                            https://www.tbrb.org/all-rankings/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WelshDevilRob View Post
                              Transnational's last P4P rankings (before Inoue vs Donaire)
                              Rank Name Nationality Record Division
                              1 Saul Alvarez * MEX 53-1-2 (36) Middleweight/Light Heavyweight
                              2 Naoya Inoue JPN 19-0-0 (16) Bantamweight
                              3 Vasiliy Lomachenko UKR 14-1-0 (10) Lightweight
                              4 Terence Crawford USA 35-0-0 (26) Welterweight
                              5 Oleksandr Usyk UKR 17-0-0 (13) Heavyweight
                              6 Gennady Golovkin KAZ 38-1-1 (34) Middleweight
                              7 Juan Francisco Estrada * MEX 40-3-0 (27) Jr. Bantamweight
                              8 Errol Spence Jr. USA 25-0-0 (21) Welterweight
                              9 Manny Pacquiao PHI 62-7-2 (39) Welterweight
                              10 Josh Taylor SCO 16-0-0 (12) Jr. Welterweight

                              https://www.tbrb.org/all-rankings/
                              A Bantamweight at number 2, how great is that to see, with Inoue winning the tournament subsequent to these rankings I wonder if the board keep him there or bump him up? I think Bantamweight is high enough for Inoue, wouldn't like to see him go up any further, there are fights for him at 115.

                              Not sure about Taylor being in there though I can think of a couple of names that should easily be replacing him at this point but I suppose that's the great thing about the rankings, everyone sees things a little differently but looks like there's consensus about who's top dog at the moment at least.

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