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What if Hagler had fought McCallum?


BoztheMadman
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As some of you may know, Marvelous never wanted to fight Mike. I think he had a really good reason. James Toney rated McCallum as the best fighter he ever fought in many departments. Bodysnatcher was really blessed with extraordinary gifts and also possessed one of the best chins ever. He could hit as we all know, even at 175 he stopped some guys. I believe Mike could have beat Hagler-not saying that he would for sure but he could.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I think people have built McCallum into some kind of avoided monster. I don't believe Hagler ducked him.

 

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I got a lot of ridicule from morons at BS for suggesting McCallum could even hold his own against Hagler. I think it's on the contrary my friend-people have built Hagler into some kind of, not avoided, monster that nobody could ever beat. McCallum was certainly clever and slick enough to do it, he was a bit taller and had a bigger reach, plus his chin could take ANYTHING Hagler would dish out. I'm not saying it's a certainty that Mike would win, nobody knows who would win but I don't like people dissing McCallum like he was some alphabet champion-he did get avoided, by Hearns, by Hagler, by Leonard even perhaps. Why didn't Hearns, the WBC lmw champ, fight him after he won his WBA title at that weight? He returned to 154 after Hagler beat him and McCallum was there until 1988, so why didn't anything happen?

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I would give him a good chance against Hagler, he was one of the great middleweight fighters but hardly gets a mention.

 

it could have potentially happened too. Unless ive got completely mixed up i think McCallum was set to face Duran, the Kronk lot thought Hearns would be a bigger money fight so they give him the shot and froze out McCallum. Hearns won and then that win lead to a Hagler fight.

 

I would say its a 60/40 fight in Haglers favor.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Ive also heard that Hagler avoided Bomber Graham at the time of the Leonard fight any thoughts on this?

 

Im sure if its true it would have been down to money but i can imagine a slowing Hagler could have a few nightmare rounds against Graham (until he catches up with him ha)

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I would give him a good chance against Hagler, he was one of the great middleweight fighters but hardly gets a mention.

 

it could have potentially happened too. Unless ive got completely mixed up i think McCallum was set to face Duran, the Kronk lot thought Hearns would be a bigger money fight so they give him the shot and froze out McCallum. Hearns won and then that win lead to a Hagler fight.

 

I would say its a 60/40 fight in Haglers favor.

:thumb: Welcome to the site. Finally someone else here who acknowledges the greatness that was Mike McCallum.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Ive also heard that Hagler avoided Bomber Graham at the time of the Leonard fight any thoughts on this?

 

Im sure if its true it would have been down to money but i can imagine a slowing Hagler could have a few nightmare rounds against Graham (until he catches up with him ha)

 

Not sure but in that doc about Herol there was a clip of Hagler talking about himself, mostly singing an ode to himself. :tongue1: I think Herol was slick enough, and fast enough, to give Hagler at least a tough fight, if nothing. That guy, had he possessed Julian Jackson's or Nigel Benn's power, he would be THE boxer. He had decent power but not outstanding.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Not sure but in that doc about Herol there was a clip of Hagler talking about himself, mostly singing an ode to himself. :tongue1: I think Herol was slick enough, and fast enough, to give Hagler at least a tough fight, if nothing. That guy, had he possessed Julian Jackson's or Nigel Benn's power, he would be THE boxer. He had decent power but not outstanding.

 

Thanks. Great to be on the forum

 

I can only imagine how good Herol could have been if he had heavy hands. Even as it stands i cant think of a better fighter never to win a world title

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  • 1 month later...

Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Ive also heard that Hagler avoided Bomber Graham at the time of the Leonard fight any thoughts on this?

That's definitely not true. Hagler was firmly in the winding down stage of his career by then and was holding out for the massive Leonard payday. Graham had virtually no profile or name recognition in the States. The first Kalambay was a showcase bout for various "suits" from the US networks and we know what happened next.
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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

That's definitely not true. Hagler was firmly in the winding down stage of his career by then and was holding out for the massive Leonard payday. Graham had virtually no profile or name recognition in the States. The first Kalambay was a showcase bout for various "suits" from the US networks and we know what happened next.

what do you think then? high risk low reward or just plain and simple no reward?

 

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  • 1 month later...

Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

This:

 

McCallum recounting a meeting they had 20 years later, and he never explains when and why Hagler should have fought him. Seems to me that Hagler was being respectful, and McCallum just went off on a rant. Truth is, Hagler had no reason to fight him. McCallum wasn't a name in boxing until about 86/87 and wasn't even a middleweight while Hagler was champion. McCallum wouldn't have been on his radar. The win against Curry that really put him on the map was three months after Hagler's last fight.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

McCallum recounting a meeting they had 20 years later, and he never explains when and why Hagler should have fought him. Seems to me that Hagler was being respectful, and McCallum just went off on a rant. Truth is, Hagler had no reason to fight him. McCallum wasn't a name in boxing until about 86/87 and wasn't even a middleweight while Hagler was champion. McCallum wouldn't have been on his radar. The win against Curry that really put him on the map was three months after Hagler's last fight.

But I know Curry was in talks for a fight with Hagler and he was a WELTERWEIGHT still at the time. McCallum was a junior middleweight and had had fights at middleweight before that. I believe Hagler ducked him because he could and because he didn't wan't to fight him, simple as that. Also, Herol Graham and James Toney have both stated Bodysnatcher was the best opponent they ever fought.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

But I know Curry was in talks for a fight with Hagler and he was a WELTERWEIGHT still at the time. McCallum was a junior middleweight and had had fights at middleweight before that. I believe Hagler ducked him because he could and because he didn't wan't to fight him, simple as that. Also, Herol Graham and James Toney have both stated Bodysnatcher was the best opponent they ever fought.

 

Curry was also a star and an undisputed champ, who was being touted for a big money fight with Hagler or Hearns. McCallum was not a star nor a top contender in Hagler's division, nor a mandatory. All of Hagler's title opponents fell into one of those categories, and McCallum was in none of them. There was absolutely no need for Hagler to face McCallum, a fight no one was calling for (except McCallum himself apparently). It's pure revisionism to say Hagler was ducking McCallum.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Curry was also a star and an undisputed champ, who was being touted for a big money fight with Hagler or Hearns. McCallum was not a star nor a top contender in Hagler's division, nor a mandatory. All of Hagler's title opponents fell into one of those categories, and McCallum was in none of them. There was absolutely no need for Hagler to face McCallum, a fight no one was calling for (except McCallum himself apparently). It's pure revisionism to say Hagler was ducking McCallum.

Caveman Lee was not a star, John Mugabi was not a star, Juan Roldan was not a star, Fully Obelmejias was not a star and yet Hagler fought all of them. Everybody knew who Mike McCallum was and he was a world champion, duh! He became that 3 years before Hagler retired. Revisionism? Up yours!

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Caveman Lee was not a star, John Mugabi was not a star, Juan Roldan was not a star, Fully Obelmejias was not a star and yet Hagler fought all of them. Everybody knew who Mike McCallum was and he was a world champion, duh! He became that 3 years before Hagler retired. Revisionism? Up yours!

 

I never said they were. I actually said everyone Hagler fought was a star, a top contender or a mandatory. Mugabi was #1 contender. Roldan was #1 contender. Fully Obel was a mandatory. And now I recall, Caveman was actually a late replacement for someone else who was injured. Ayub Kalule, Tadashi Mahara and Davey Moore also held a 154lb title while Hagler was around. Was he ducking them too?

 

Sorry but it is revisionism to paint McCallum as some sort of terror that Hagler was running scared of. He actually had his first chance to establish himself on HBO when he fought Sean Mannion, and blew it by stinking out the place. He didn't finally do that until he beat Don Curry, which as I said was three months after Hagler's last bout. He was not a star or any kind of factor in Hagler's division while he was champion, thus Hagler had no need to face him, however many rants he makes on Youtube.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I never said they were. I actually said everyone Hagler fought was a star, a top contender or a mandatory. Mugabi was #1 contender. Roldan was #1 contender. Fully Obel was a mandatory. And now I recall, Caveman was actually a late replacement for someone else who was injured. Ayub Kalule, Tadashi Mahara and Davey Moore also held a 154lb title while Hagler was around. Was he ducking them too?

 

Sorry but it is revisionism to paint McCallum as some sort of terror that Hagler was running scared of. He actually had his first chance to establish himself on HBO when he fought Sean Mannion, and blew it by stinking out the place. He didn't finally do that until he beat Don Curry, which as I said was three months after Hagler's last bout. He was not a star or any kind of factor in Hagler's division while he was champion, thus Hagler had no need to face him, however many rants he makes on Youtube.

I never thought or said that nor did I try to hint at it. But McCallum WAS very slick and had a very good chin, at any weight he fought. Hagler knew that he wouldn't look so good against him, thats why he avoided him. Can you name me one slick fighter he looked good against? He lost to Willie Monroe and Bobby Watts, both slick boxers. And when he finally took on another slick fighter, Ray Leonard, he lost. Hearns can also be called slick but he didn't box in that fight against Hagler, lol. He was always an offensive fighter first and foremost. Mike was good at both, offense and defense. I think you are a big Hagler fan who just won't face the facts.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I never thought or said that nor did I try to hint at it. But McCallum WAS very slick and had a very good chin, at any weight he fought. Hagler knew that he wouldn't look so good against him, thats why he avoided him. Can you name me one slick fighter he looked good against? He lost to Willie Monroe and Bobby Watts, both slick boxers. And when he finally took on another slick fighter, Ray Leonard, he lost. Hearns can also be called slick but he didn't box in that fight against Hagler, lol. He was always an offensive fighter first and foremost. Mike was good at both, offense and defense. I think you are a big Hagler fan who just won't face the facts.

 

That's a different discussion though. This is about Hagler supposedly not wanting to fight McCallum. Can you point me to an interview in which Hagler admits that? A serious offer for the bout that Hagler turned down? Evidence of public clamour or pressure from the networks/ABCs for this fight? Not to mention why Hagler was obliged to fight a 154lb alphabet champion who had done nothing to warrant a shot at him.

 

McCallum won the 154lb belt in late '84. Hagler had three more fights, against Hearns, Mugabi and Leonard, and then retired. McCallum had his first middleweight bout the following year, and lost. Exactly which McCallum victories had Hagler fearing he wouldn't look good against him? Luigi Minchillo? Sean Mannion? Said Skouma? McCallum's biggest win up to then was against an inexperienced Julian Jackson. That Mike went on to become a great is neither here nor there, he wasn't when Hagler was around.

 

As to your other point, Hagler did also KO Monroe and Watts in rematches, and he KO'd Hearns. The Hagler that fought Leonard was the weakest version and it was still one of the most disputed decisions in history. In any case, McCallum had his vulnerabilities too. He got outboxed by Kalambay and was being outboxed by Curry before Curry forgot to duck. He got pushed hard by a novice Steve Collins and squeaked a very disputed split against Herol Graham on the strength of a point deduction.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

That's a different discussion though. This is about Hagler supposedly not wanting to fight McCallum. Can you point me to an interview in which Hagler admits that? A serious offer for the bout that Hagler turned down? Evidence of public clamour or pressure from the networks/ABCs for this fight? Not to mention why Hagler was obliged to fight a 154lb alphabet champion who had done nothing to warrant a shot at him.

 

McCallum won the 154lb belt in late '84. Hagler had three more fights, against Hearns, Mugabi and Leonard, and then retired. McCallum had his first middleweight bout the following year, and lost. Exactly which McCallum victories had Hagler fearing he wouldn't look good against him? Luigi Minchillo? Sean Mannion? Said Skouma? McCallum's biggest win up to then was against an inexperienced Julian Jackson. That Mike went on to become a great is neither here nor there, he wasn't when Hagler was around.

 

As to your other point, Hagler did also KO Monroe and Watts in rematches, and he KO'd Hearns. The Hagler that fought Leonard was the weakest version and it was still one of the most disputed decisions in history. In any case, McCallum had his vulnerabilities too. He got outboxed by Kalambay and was being outboxed by Curry before Curry forgot to duck. He got pushed hard by a novice Steve Collins and squeaked a very disputed split against Herol Graham on the strength of a point deduction.

 

Lol, OF COURSE Hagler would never admit that. And no, Mike wasn't his mandatory, which was all the excuse he needed not to fight him. And Curry didn't forget to duck, that is very disrespectful of you. Mike set up that knockout. And Collins didn't really push him hard except physically, Mike outboxed him clearly. He did get outboxed by Kalambay, one of the best technicians of the time who ALSO is missing from Hagler's opponent record btw, but he beat him in the rematch. It was Mike's first serious fight at 160 and in Kalambay's homeland too. And it's not like he got totally schooled. Herol Graham said Mike was the best fighter he ever fought. I can give you a link to see for yourself.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Lol, OF COURSE Hagler would never admit that. And no, Mike wasn't his mandatory, which was all the excuse he needed not to fight him. And Curry didn't forget to duck, that is very disrespectful of you. Mike set up that knockout. And Collins didn't really push him hard except physically, Mike outboxed him clearly. He did get outboxed by Kalambay, one of the best technicians of the time who ALSO is missing from Hagler's opponent record btw, but he beat him in the rematch. It was Mike's first serious fight at 160 and in Kalambay's homeland too. And it's not like he got totally schooled. Herol Graham said Mike was the best fighter he ever fought. I can give you a link to see for yourself.

 

Of course Hagler would never admit to ducking someone he didn't duck. I reiterate: there was no point when Hagler was active that McCallum was a plausible opponent for him. There was no demand for the fight. McCallum was in a smaller division. He had had no serious fight at 160 (your words). He had no name recognition until Don Curry lent him his when Hagler was already retired. That's the bottom line. Hagler had no reason to avoid him. He had no reason to pay much attention to him at all.

 

All this stuff about Hagler needing excuses not to fight someone who was completely irrelevant to him is pure revisionism. McCallum can talk out of his arse on a Youtube video, the facts and timeline of their careers tell a different story. You may as well say Wlad Klitschko is ducking Bernard Hopkins.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

I don't believe that Hagler avoided "The Body Snatcher" no matter what anyone wishes to say, however, one does wish the stars had aligned to make that one come to fruition.

 

It would be hard to pick against Hagler, but McCallum would be drilling him throughout the fight and give him one of the sternest tests of his pro-career in a bloody (and bloody good) battle.

 

Marvin would be the one admitting the ferocity of MM and his body work, despite coming away with a marginal points win.

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Re: What if Hagler had fought McCallum?

 

Of course Hagler would never admit to ducking someone he didn't duck. I reiterate: there was no point when Hagler was active that McCallum was a plausible opponent for him. There was no demand for the fight. McCallum was in a smaller division. He had had no serious fight at 160 (your words). He had no name recognition until Don Curry lent him his when Hagler was already retired. That's the bottom line. Hagler had no reason to avoid him. He had no reason to pay much attention to him at all.

 

All this stuff about Hagler needing excuses not to fight someone who was completely irrelevant to him is pure revisionism. McCallum can talk out of his arse on a Youtube video, the facts and timeline of their careers tell a different story. You may as well say Wlad Klitschko is ducking Bernard Hopkins.

Just because you don't wanna believe in it doesn't make it revisionism. You are playing the part of a typical fanboy who refuses to believe anything negative about his beloved fighter. Wake up and smell the coffee! And why didn't Hagler fight KALAMBAY then, he was a middleweight who was on everyone's rankings when Marvin was still champion? From the same reason as he didn't fight Bodysnatcher. ***

 

And PS, boxing history has been written by sportswriters who were good at omitting certain things that could make someone like Hagler look less marvelous than they want him to be, so revisionism in this case is good.

Edited by LondonRingRules
Escalating aggression not needed
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