Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

It looked like I saw the fight slightly different than you guys. I had it 116-112 for GGG. There were 5 rounds that I could've scored even if it was possible, which is enough to justify a lot of weird stuff with scoring.3 of those rounds i had for Golovkin, 2 for Alvarez. I think we can pretty much agree that Canelo had decent middle rounds (6-9). I had 6-8 for him and 9 for Golovkin, but this one was pretty much even. Golovkin clearly landed the best shots of the fight in rounds 10-12. So disagreement comes to first three rounds. When I look at the stats from fight-score, most guys had Alvarez ahead 30-27. I think that GGG was crazy effective with his jab at the beginning. He didn't land too much power shots, so I can see rounds 2 and 3 go to Canelo, but round 1 was not dominant, but clear for Golovkin in my opinion as Canelo didn't do much either. So, 30-27 for Canelo doesn't tell a story of the first 3 rounds. I can't call this one a robbery as Golovkin didn't win more than 5 rounds clearly, but I'm pretty sure that he deserved the edge. Alvarez showed guts and chin of steel, but he wasn't a better fighter that night. Alvarez is a good fighter, but it's pretty annoying to see him getting like every close round on the judges' cards, let alone the craziness of scores like 117-111 against Lara, 114-114 against FMJ and 118-110 against GGG in the first one. In my opinion it's even worse than this infamous "German" judging.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

:haha:Hooray for drug cheats!!!!

It's like an episode of "The Twilight Zone." ;-)

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Quite an odd thing seeing so many folks agree on this thread!!! :haha:

I really enjoyed the fight, only caught it last night as I was away for the weekend and had it so close. I just edged it to Canelo by a point but had an even round there and could quite easily have scored at least 1 of the later rounds a draw also, which would have given an even 114.

Canelo's game plan seemed to be perfect, he waqs agressive and came forward, looked tidy and crisp. At periods Golovkin managed to figure out Canelo, and landed some good barrages, but the were too infrequent and short lived, but they were probably the best shots landed in the entire fight.

I was purely a neutral on this one, was a fun fight and I'd be happy to watch a 3rd! That lucrative trilogy!

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Its all opinion anyway, when viewing on tv if Canelo's back is toward you and GGG power jabs him and Canelo's head rocks back, is it a clean landed punch? Or a head movement to get out of range? Unless you are literally ringside as a judge to witness it; its just an opinion. If you are a GGG fan it will be points and if you are a Canelo fan it wont be.

I know a lot of casual observers personally who watched the fight as 'neutrals' though - obviously not scoring it with pen and paper - took GGG's 'aggression' at face value and thought he had won it fairly easily. Around the 7-5 mark. Canelo's reaction at the end of the fight though was by a man who knew he had landed more, and cleaner scoring punches and had no doubt whatsoever that he had won. Now bring on all the conspiracy theorists that it was a GB payoff, in a city he has a lot of influence in, and Chepo had told Saul just before the last round the brown envelopes had already been delivered to the hotel rooms :haha:

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Its all opinion anyway, when viewing on tv if Canelo's back is toward you and GGG power jabs him and Canelo's head rocks back, is it a clean landed punch? Or a head movement to get out of range? Unless you are literally ringside as a judge to witness it; its just an opinion. If you are a GGG fan it will be points and if you are a Canelo fan it wont be.

That's all true, and can also be the same for the judges like, depending on what angle they see the exchange from. I guess that's why there's 3 of them on different sides of the ring though.

As ever, with anything subjective, it's always controversy and claims of conspiracies.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Yea and like you said, no one seems to be going bananas over it. The massive swell for a GGG victory on here as 'revenge' for the draw and come-uppance for the PED abuse has fizzled out to a quiet and orderly 'ah well then bring on the trilogy'. Personally, I dont see a 3rd fight, not any time soon, and the longer it goes on the less likely it will become because of GGG's age.

The writing was probably on the wall anyway as Canelo only got a 6mth ban for illegal PED use PLUS it was backdated to the date of the first test...the original GB brown envelopes must have been delivered at that stage. (If there were any). Nevada commish have done very well over Canelo-GGG ll. This was a fight that had to be made, and dont get starry eyed it was on behalf of 'boxing fans'.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

The massive swell for a GGG victory on here as 'revenge' for the draw and come-uppance for the PED abuse has fizzled out to a quiet and orderly 'ah well then bring on the trilogy'. Personally, I dont see a 3rd fight, not any time soon, and the longer it goes on the less likely it will become because of GGG's age.

It's an odd one isn't it? I'm not sure if it's down to good handlng by Golden Boy to play down the who drug thing or what, but from initial rage and hand wringing it's somewhat died down and not just the odd mutterings of Canelo's favouring treatment by the Nevada state / Golden Boy judges.

I really didn't get too dumbbed down with the drug stuff, but there was certainly a lot of confusion and uncertainty about it to kind of be swept under the carpet, rightly or wrongly :haha:

Personally don't believe Golovkin would walk away now. He's not over the hill clearly so still has a lot to offer, and he wouldn't want to end on a loss, a high profile one at that. With those in mind I'm not sure who else is there for him to take on, other than try for some retribution with a trilogy fight.

Of course, if he won that one, they will have to have a 4th scrap wouldn't they!? :haha:

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

I had it to Golovkin, close. Interesting to hear that people scored the final round for Canelo. At the time I thought Golovkin won it clearly (dominating the opening exchanges, then nip and tuck after that). I'm looking forward to going back and re-watching with the benefit of hindsight and with an appreciation that so many seemed to have disagreed over nearly all of the rounds. One of the great things about this fight was that not only was it close overall as a contest but every round was a microcosm of that overall closeness. It's been refreshing to see some sense prevailing after some claims of a robbery.

I think the feeling of injustice many have about the result of the fight is from its context as a follow-up to a first fight in which the decks were so obviously stacked against Golovkin. Now along comes a fight that could have legitimately gone either way (even if you judged one of the two the victor) and there's a lingering sense that even though the margins were smaller and the result a credible one, the balance was always going to be tipped towards Canelo and hence prove decisive in a close contest. My view is that makes complaints about the result paradoxically both legitimate and misplaced. Best thing I've read on this is by Tris Dixon on Boxingscene.com. One of the things he mentions, which I agree with, is that Golovkin can feel pretty aggrieved that after 24 rounds he was only judged the winner on 1 of 6 scorecards. That doesn't make the outcome of this fight a wrong one, but it does seem to rub a bit of salt in the wound of the injustice the first time around.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

--- The scorecards here. 1-6 rds were identical scoring and 10 and 11 identical, so that's 8 rounds of uniform judging if I got it right, better than most close fights have, and the 1 point spreads of the final tally were very close thanks to the absence of Ms Byrd. And thank the heavens Mr Byrd didn't ref!

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

--- The scorecards here. 1-6 rds were identical scoring and 10 and 11 identical, so that's 8 rounds of uniform judging if I got it right, better than most close fights have, and the 1 point spreads of the final tally were very close thanks to the absence of Ms Byrd. And thank the heavens Mr Byrd didn't ref!

 

I hadn't noticed that. I find that amazing. There are some fights that are close but clear, but this is one where I felt (at least while watching it) that there were a number of rounds where you can make a case for either fighter.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

--- as a follow up, SRLeonard scores it for Canelo.

once we get opinions from Hagler, Hearns and Duran, we may have a definitive result.

Sugar Ray Leonard: ‘I had Canelo as the winner’ - The Ring

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

--- Thomas Hauser prefight of the rematch...

The Validation of Canelo Alvarez - The Ring

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Unofficial Scorecards

Barry Jones (BT Sport) 116-112 Golovkin

Michael Benson (talkSPORT) 116-112 Golovkin

Adam Abramowitz (saturdaynightboxing) 115-113 Golovkin

Harold Lederman (HBO Sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Brian Campbell (CBS sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Dan Rafael (ESPN): 114-114 draw

Stephen A. Smith (ESPN): Golovkin won

Arash Markazi (ESPN): 114-114 draw

Brett Okamoto (ESPN): 114-114 draw

Teddy Atlas - Golovkin won

Salvador Rodríguez (ESPN Mexico): 114-114 draw

Eduardo Lamazón (Televisa): 116-112 Golovkin

Gareth A Davies (The Telegraph): 116-112 Golovkin

Josh Peter (USA Today): 115-113 Golovkin

Sports Illustrated: 114-114 draw

Dylan Hernandez (LA Times): 115-113 Golovkin

Lance Pugmire (La Times): 114-114 draw

BoxingScene: 114-114 draw

Chris Mannix (Yahoo! Sports): 115-113 Golovkin

Kevin Iole (Yahoo! Sports): 114-114 draw

The Guardian: 116-112 Golovkin

Joe DePaolo (Washington Post): 115-113 Golovkin

Mike Coppinger (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw

Douglass Fischer (Ring Magazine): 114-114 draw

Mike Baca II (Ring Magazine and Undisputed Champion Network): 115-113 Golovkin

Al Bernstein (Showtime Sports): Golovkin won

Sherdog.com: 116-112 Golovkin

Jai Bednall (news.com.au): 115-113 Golovkin

Brian Mazique (Forbes): 114-114 draw

Adam Abramowitz (Ring Magazine and SN Boxing): 115-113 Golovkin

Tom Craze (Bad Left Hook): 116-112 Golovkin

Fraser Coffeen (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin

Anton Tabuena (Bloody Elbow): 115-113 Golovkin

The Associated Press: 114-114 draw

Adam Caparell (Complex Sports): 116-112 Golovkin

Bill Simmons (HBO and The Ringer): 114-114 draw

Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News): 116-112 Golovkin

Andreas Hale (Sporting News): Golovkin won

Graham Houston (Boxing Monthly): Canelo won

Michael Montero (MonteroOnBoxing): 115-113 Golovkin

Matt Christie (Boxing News): 115-114 Golovkin

George Willis (New York Post): 114-114 draw

Gary Melo (SportsNet Canada): Golovkin won

Below The Belt Podcast: 115-113 Golovkin

World Boxing News: 115-113 Golovkin

Jeff Powell (Daily Mail): 116-113 Golovkin

Marcos Villegas (Fight Hub TV): 114-114 draw

Michelle Rosado (Raging Babe): 115-113 Canelo

Michelle Joy Phelps (Behind the Gloves): 115-113 Golovkin

Lennox Lewis: Golovkin won by 2 rounds

Fight Nights: 115-113 Golovkin

Michael Woods (NYFights.com): two point edge for Golovkin

Dieter Kurtenbach (San Jose Mercury News and the East Bay Times): Golovkin won by 3 rounds

Rafael G (the Fight City): 116-112 Golovkin

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

I think it comes down to rounds 1, 9, and 12, and absolutely could go either way depending on how you prefer to score.

I watched only those three rounds again, twice, with no audio and in slo-mo. I gave 9 & 12 to Canelo, with round 1 a draw. (And believe me, I WANTED to give them to Golovkin.)

However, not being able to hear if shots landed or not made it near impossible to score with high certainty, especially because Canelo is so good at head slips. Even with the audio on, this was not nearly as audible as with many other broadcasts. I wonder if that was done on purpose?

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

Unofficial Scorecards

...................................

Come on Seli, give us a running total lad!!! :haha:

Go on then

Golovkin - 36

Canelo - 2

Draw - 15

That's quite staggering really, and so is the fact that the judges had the exact same cards through 6 rounds!

....I wonder if that was done on purpose?

You was doing quite well right up to this point, and then hints of conspiracies arise :haha:

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

so is the fact that the judges had the exact same cards through 6 rounds!

8 rounds, not 6.

8/12 rounds identical judging.

1 - 6 and 10 &11

Just goes to show how rose tinted glasses filled with the sight of glorious revenge for G3, whilst viewing in 2D from 5000 miles away can taint one's true judgment....

Addendum:

Have you collated your appz totals yet for a bit of a summary?

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

 

Just goes to show how rose tinted glasses filled with the sight of glorious revenge for G3, whilst viewing in 2D from 5000 miles away can taint one's true judgment....

I agree that this was surely a big part of it.

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

--- Btw, I've seen no reports of their fight night weights.

Anyone?

Re: Push Comes to Shove-Canelo vs GGG- Who YOU Got?

8 rounds, not 6.

 

8/12 rounds identical judging.

 

1 - 6 and 10 &11

 

Just goes to show how rose tinted glasses filled with the sight of glorious revenge for G3, whilst viewing in 2D from 5000 miles away can taint one's true judgment....

 

Addendum:

 

Have you collated your appz totals yet for a bit of a summary?

Crazy stuff indeed!! Agreed on the rose tinted viewpoint of the boxing fraternity.

Golovkin: 114.5

Canelo: 113.9

I have been doing a load of improvements to Fight-Score this past week, and have something of a second wind to try and promote it, get it seen by more people :thumb: