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Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?


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Anthony Joshua: age 27, 18-0, 18 KO, 44 rds 3-0, 3 KO title record.

 

The Josh prime has only just started, yet he is currently the best he's ever been, so how does that stack up with the best?

 

Cross referencing the involved statistical variables yields the following:

 

George Foreman 18-0, 15 KO 1970, age 21, no contender 3 years before title

Muhammad Ali 18-0, 14 KO 1963, age 22, one contender Doug Jones 1 year before title

Joe Louis 18-0, 14 KO 1935, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

Mike Tyson 18-0, 18 KO 1986, age 19, no contender 9 months before title

Larry Holmes 18-0, 13 KO 1975, age 26, no contender 3 years before title

Rocky Marciano 18-0, 17 KO 1949, age 25, no contender 3 year before title

Joe Frazier 18-0, 16 KO 1967, age 23, no contender 1 year before title

Lennox Lewis 18-0, 16 KO 1991, age 26, no contender 2 years before title

Wlad Klitschko 18-0, 17 KO 1998, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

 

My conclusion: Josh whoops all save the possibilities of still green Tyson, Joe Louis and George Foreman getting to him. Josh also easily whoops all their comp at that stage with not many of Josh's comp being whooped by their comp as they build their records on the timeline. His biggest advantage besides size/strength/boxing ability is being a fully mature age 27 in his athletic prime years with unparalleled success, scarcely losing a round.

 

These I take to be the protagonists' best fight showing dominance without controversy or officiating help:

 

Joshua- undefeated Dillon Whyte pretitle

George Foreman-undefeated champ Joe Frazier

Muhammad Ali- 4x defeated 39-4 WBA champ Earnie Terrell

Joe Louis- rematch of 52-7-4 Max Schmeling

Mike Tyson- undefeated champ Tony Tucker

Larry Holmes- twice defeated 20-2 Randy Cobb

Rocky Marciano- 149-19-8 LH champ Archie Moore

Joe Frazier- Undefeated champ Ali

Lennox Lewis- once defeated 37-1 David Tua

Wlad Klitschko- undefeated Alexander Povetkin in the homeland of Russia who was engaged in a low level war against Klitschko's native Ukraine

 

My conclusion: Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, Frazier, and Wlad comprehensively whooped better fighters than Josh, and certainly Rocky also by the legendary status of Moore who might well whoop Whyte also even if a bit of a stretch size and age wise. I could go into the 2nd and 3rd best bouts showing dominance, but this project just a short refresher of the historical timelines Thing is, if Josh whoops Wlad, bingo, now he has a comparable victory to Frazier.

 

Finally, let's look at where the fighters were at age 27 as Josh currently is.

 

George Foreman age 27 KOed Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Scott Le Doux, and Dino Denis at the start of his comeback from Ali loss, title record of 3-1, 3 KO.

 

Muhammad Ali age 27 in boxing exile up before the US Supreme Court for judgement with a title record of 10-0, 8 KO.

 

Joe Louis age 27 beat Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, Lou Nova, Buddy Baer rematch, Abe Simon, all title fights before being inducted into the Army for 3 yrs. Title record of 22-0, 19 KO.

 

Mike Tyson age 27 incarcerated on bogus rape charges arranged by DKing. Title record of 10-1, 8 KO.

 

Larry Holmes age 27 beat Tom Prater, Horace Robinson, and Fred Houpe, all pre title fights.

 

Rocky Marciano age 27 usually by KO beat Tiger Ted Lowry, Bill Wilson, Keen Simmons, Harold Mitchell, Art Henri, Willis Applegate, Rex Layne, and Freddie Beshore, all pretitle fights.

 

Joe Frazier age 27 BTFO out of Ali in FOTC/FOY. Title record 8-0, 6 KO.

 

Lennox Lewis age 27 beat Razor Ruddock and then Tony Tucker for his first title(vacated by Big Dummy)

Wlad Klitschko age 27 beat a couple of minor fringe contenders looking for his 2nd title, title record of 6-1, 5 KO.

My conclusion: Ali and Tyson were unavailable but more proven, but Rocky and Holmes too poorly tutored to beat Josh if ever. Lewis was at about the same unproven stage as Josh, but Foreman, Louis, and Wlad were more proven and have excellent chances of knocking Josh out with Josh being the underdog. As much as I love Frazier, this a bad size and stylematchup for him that I'd pick Josh over in spite of Frazier being more proven. Lewis KOing washed up versions of Rudduck and Tucker yields no confidence in him as he always looked ready to faint when entering the ring. Josh in comparison has the Eric Molina defense to take him to a 3-0, 3KO title record and coming up on Wlad's challenge, so he has 7 more months to make his 27 year old destiny.

 

In summary, Josh is up there by many measures or has surpassed many on this list at comparable timelines, most particularly at the comparative 18-0 marks. He still has quite the gauntlet to traverse before being mentioned with the upper echelons of greats as I'm sure most here already know.

Edited by LondonRingRules
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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

Fuckn 'ell! Whatever I, or anybody now says will pale into insignificance! Crackingly well researched post LRR.....:thumb:

 

Very difficult to compare the street-animal, and convicted felon, Iron Mike to the "home counties"-born Hertfordshire boy, AJ. two completely opposed upbringings and lifestyle/environments. Only time will tell as AJ is a long way from the finished package as he stands. He will definitely dethrone the steroid-monster Wlad, and usher in a new clean era of heavyweight dominance.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

Mike Tyson age 27 incarcerated on bogus rape charges arranged by DKing. Title record of 10-1, 8 KO.

 

It was going so well until this bullshit! So so strange!

 

He will definitely dethrone the steroid-monster Wlad, and usher in a new clean era of heavyweight dominance.

 

How come Wlad is a steroid monster and AJ isn't? They are both impossing figures with great athletic physiques?

 

Is it because of Wlad fighting predominantly in Germany and their testing allows for more XYZ (insert advantageous drugs/hormones etc here) than in other countries?

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

I think he'd struggle against Ali because of his speed and mobility, against Foreman it would be who lands first wins, against Frazier he'd just overpower the smaller Joe, against Louis he'd have a chance but I think he'd have to win by ko, against Tyson it's the great size advantage again but also a risk of getting knocked out so its a 50/50 fight, just like against Foreman, Holmes would be a tough match but not impossible to beat, Lewis I think would most likely get ktfo and Rocky Marciano would be too small but if he landed a bomb, who knows. Still most likely to get stopped by Joshua, but not easily. Wlad in his prime vs Joshua would have been a great battle...hard to say who wins but Wlad had a good jab and threw good combos, plus one punch power. Very risky fight for Joshua but not impossible to win. I think tho against Tyson, if he fought like a tall man, like Buster did and Tucker before he hurt his hand, I can def see Joshua winning and by stoppage.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

Is it because of Wlad fighting predominantly in Germany and their testing allows for more XYZ (insert advantageous drugs/hormones etc here) than in other countries?

 

Without going off-topic in a great thread by LRR, basically in a nutshell, yes. IMHO.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

Without going off-topic in a great thread by LRR, basically in a nutshell, yes. IMHO.

 

It is not going off topic though pal. The debate is about AJ and his counterparts. It is relevant if someone has a big advantage.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

I made a post defending Joshua's opponents and accomplishments once. I also made note of the lack of experience, at which he had reached championship status, and defended it.

I am pretty sure it was this forum, but it was not as comprehensive as this thread starter.

I hope he goes on to be an all time great. As has been pointed out, he is already ahead of some of the greats at this early stage.

Of course, you can only be great by beating other greats, and it doesn't appear that many people consider who is around to be great, so we will no doubt be seeing posts in the future, asking, "who did he beat?" or "He was never a big underdog", as well as the inevitable, "He was a drug cheat".

After someone (possibly Gav) criticized Wilder, as fighting stupidly, I looked at some Teddy Atlas highlight reels of him, and see that he is wildly off balance and has a few other bad habits. I think Joshua is a more controlled, cool, possibly more intelligent fighter, and at this stage, would give him the edge, but Wilder has an equalizer that is faster than any other big punching heavy I have seen, that I don't think Anthony could withstand. If he was decked, could he get back up? We don't know the answer to that yet.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

 

It was going so well until this bullshit! So so strange

 

If LRR'S likes a fighter, he will find any way possible to word something, in a way that defends him. Whether it entails conspiracy theories or turning the blame of someones bad sportsmanship, into the fault of the other guy, nothing is sacred, nothing is too biased.

Conversely, he finds anything he can, to have a dig at any fighter that beats a fighter he likes.

Hence his hatred of Holyfield, and explains why he was not included in this analysis, as it would kill him to refer to Holyfield as "a great".

Another culprit is Marquez for daring to beat Pacquiao. So it isn't "so so strange" really.

Even if the rape charge was bogus, I would very much doubt that King was the instigator, and you may recall Mike giggling whilst being interviewed once, telling us how he liked to hurt women sexually and how he hit Givens and she flew across the room and slid down the wall, so that just shows what he was capable of.

I don't know how people can idolize a man like him, but that is just how I am.

 

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

I love stats, but the stats you have listed for Joshua don't match the stats you have listed foor the others. You have not listed his contenders before title, nor have you listed their rounds as you have with Joshua.

Your dislike of Holmes shows clearly. Listing Cobb as his best win, and saying he was too poorly tutoured to beat Josh, if ever, is ridiculous. A man who had 19 title defenses against 10 unbeaten challengers and who learned his trade, by sparring Ali was too poorly tutoured? Biased much?

Also It is Ruddock not Rudduck.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

Fuckn 'ell! Whatever I, or anybody now says will pale into insignificance! Crackingly well researched post LRR.....:thumb:

 

Very difficult to compare the street-animal, and convicted felon, Iron Mike to the "home counties"-born Hertfordshire boy, AJ. two completely opposed upbringings and lifestyle/environments. Only time will tell as AJ is a long way from the finished package as he stands. He will definitely dethrone the steroid-monster Wlad, and usher in a new clean era of heavyweight dominance.

Not just a "street" animal pal. I think trying to hit a totally defenseless Savarese and pushing the ref to the floor to do it, after the fight had already been stopped, plus trying to break Botha's arm, trying to put Ferguson's nose bone into his brain, biting a part of a mans ear off, telling us how he wants to eat Lewis' children and many other things, makes him an animal in the ring too. Where can I buy a poster for my wall?

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

I love stats, but the stats you have listed for Joshua don't match the stats you have listed foor the others. You have not listed his contenders before title, nor have you listed their rounds as you have with Joshua.

Your dislike of Holmes shows clearly. Listing Cobb as his best win, and saying he was too poorly tutoured to beat Josh, if ever, is ridiculous. A man who had 19 title defenses against 10 unbeaten challengers and who learned his trade, by sparring Ali was too poorly tutoured? Biased much?

Also It is Ruddock not Rudduck.

 

--- Your crude, untutored Rocky beat Tubbs to the title by a year and it was undisputed in spite of not having been tutored by Ali.

 

If you are so untutored as to not understand various timeline comparisons, you'd be better served trying to understand why you project a simple discussion of fighters into a hate. Sounds very painful for you.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

--- Your crude, untutored Rocky beat Tubbs to the title by a year and it was undisputed in spite of not having been tutored by Ali.

 

If you are so untutored as to not understand various timeline comparisons, you'd be better served trying to understand why you project a simple discussion of fighters into a hate. Sounds very painful for you.[/quote

 

I never said Rocky was crude or untutored, and if Larry fought guys with 57 losses, I am sure he would have won it a lot faster. I don't turn a simple debate into "a hate", you do, you hate Holmes, Holyfield, Leonard, Marquez, Wilder and many others. I just don't know why you cannot be fair and adult, in any debate. You always have to have a dig, or bring up conspiracy theories, against guys who beat boxers that you are a fan of.

You clearly worded your analogy in a way that made Holmes look far worse than he was. Cobb was NOT his best win

You also snuck in a reference to Mike Tyson being innocent of rape, which was totally irrelevant, and you definitely would not have done the same if it was Holmes.

I recall once, a guy asking what type of heavy are you a fan of, and you replied, "one that takes it out of the hands of the judges" and that person then replied, "surely Wilder fits that description", but as you don't like him, you found a way around your own criteria, to continue doing so.

I also don't know why you try so hard to come across as super intelligent. It is just a bunch of boxing fans on here, no scientists. You also have this habit of being sarcastic, in literally every post you make.

I am not getting into another hate war with you. You are a mod, who is part of a clique, so I cannot argue back without getting banned.

As I said in a post yesterday, I am no longer your enemy. My daughter went into a coma a couple of days ago, and it I now see life differently. I don't want to spend it, being stressed and feeling like I want to kill people. So if you can stop being so sarcastic and bitter, we can start afresh if you like.....but I don't think you will like.

Edited by chaconfan
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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

--- Cooney was obviously his best win but controversial because of race baiting created by Lar and King that stirred up the KKK resulting in FBI snipers on rooftops. Cooney just a big goof, rusty, injury prone, and responded poorly to the true hatred directed his way as the so called champ of the KKK.

 

I picked Cobb as his definitive masterclass without controversy, so what? Never seen a supposedly grown man project so much hatred as you by constant reference of the terms. You're self inflicted, and no, mods ain't some clique. We have divergent lives and opinion that anyone can disagree with, both with you it's all about hate.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

--- Cooney was obviously his best win but controversial because of race baiting created by Lar and King that stirred up the KKK resulting in FBI snipers on rooftops. Cooney just a big goof, rusty, injury prone, and responded poorly to the true hatred directed his way as the so called champ of the KKK.

 

I picked Cobb as his definitive masterclass without controversy, so what? Never seen a supposedly grown man project so much hatred as you by constant reference of the terms. You're self inflicted, and no, mods ain't some clique. We have divergent lives and opinion that anyone can disagree with, both with you it's all about hate.

 

You ain't some clique? Funny how a certain mod thanks you for virtually every thing you ever post, no matter how biased, how spiteful, how sarcastic, how bitter, how incomprehensible, or how completely incorrect.

You are such a massive hypocrite! You say you never seen a grown man project so much hatred, when all you do is hate on boxers and people. You think every fight is a massive conspiracy, with ku klux klan, FBI, Don king framing Tyson for rape etc etc etc. You are the one calling Wilder "Beyonce" You are the one calling Holmes's tubby etc etc. I am the one who is always trying to defend boxers or show both sides to a story. You just dislike a boxer and it is always his fault. You have hated on Wilder, Marquez, Holyfield, Holmes, Leonard, and many more.You are also the one who wants to carry on with the fighting on here, and I was the one who offered to forgive and forget....so how can you be so ridiculous as to say that I project so much hate? All I have been trying to do is get you to be fair. Stop trying to portray yourself as a witty intellect, because you are definitely neither.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

 

It was going so well until this bullshit! So so strange!]

 

--- incontestable that she went out with him willingly knowing his bad rep, and then willingly entered the hotel room and there was no penetration. Kings civil tax/accounting attorney represented him miserably in a criminal trial that netted Tyson 3 yrs of his prime in jail, a loss of at least $50 mil.

 

Who manuvered him into having free hands on run at a beauty contest after a violent divorce from a known gold digger? King is the answer and he used that tax attorney to seize control of Tyson's 100 mil trust set aside for his retirement. None of the above is anything an honest manager or promoter would do and nothing his original team would do. Yeah, probably committed a dozen or more crimes against women who were paid off, just not with ms washington.

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Re: Anthony Joshua~How Does He Compare To The Greats?

 

This Saturday is the moment of truth for Anthony Joshua. Is he fully prepared or taking this step too soon. A lot will depend on how much Wlad has left. Could be the passing of the torch ala Joe Louis to Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes to Mike Tyson.

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