Jump to content

Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?


Ton
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello folks, I think some years back I had brought up about possible technologies to aid in the scoring of boxing bouts.

 

 

In that instance I was thinking more in terms of tech being able to establish punches being landed to better calculate the punch stats, accuracy, whether a punch was landed fully or partially blocked etc. If I recall, I was going along the lines of the use of Hawkeye in tennis and snooker.

 

If that tech can pinpoint where a ball lands, its direction and how fast it travels, you'd deduce that it could be adapted so that it would be possible that is could track where boxers gloves and going and whether they are connecting with their opponent. And I'm sure even further data analysis, calculations and what, they would be able to establish just how hard the shot landed and thus assess some form of "damage" scale.

 

This kind of thing would eliminate the need for human error, or assumption. Since compubox, I believe relies on a person physically pressing a button when they assume a punch lands in a specific area. The people can have obscured views, or miss a shot or accidently tap the buttons etc. So they are not the best indicator of actual punch stats.

 

While the above system would be quite good for the stats, they alone don't tell the talae of a round or dictate who won a round as tactics play a big part.

 

This weekend for example Jacobs was on the backfoot plenty and picking off Golovkin at times. Some people think he'd win the round for fighting smart...others would score it for Golovkin for the stalking style and engaging, despite him maybe not landing much of significance.

 

And this is where the real problem occurs. It seems that we are forever talking about decisions, and obviously, fights are subjective so there will ALWAYS be some contentious debate. However one thing that NEVER happens are the officials being made to explain their thought process of why they scored a fight as they did. We just get their score numbers and thats all.

 

Maybe we need to bring in some way for judges to explain why they scored a round. I certainly think the technology exists. And I dont just mean by adding another column on their scorepad with "explanation" on it for them to scribble onto.

 

I am thinking that for these televised fights, where we have instant replays and multiple camera angles there's no excuse we cannot use all of this. So here is a concept:

 

- Judges are provided a tablet device for their scorecard system.

- It has live video feed feature at hand - Within this they can drag the video back and forth, or tap a "live" button which brings them right back up to the live feed.

- After a round they have their 1 minute to enter a score for each boxer, then a list of possible reasons from which they select they can select mulitple reasons...

- If the reason isn't a significant event such as a knockdown....they can then pinpoint exactly where in the round they saw the point scoring action by dragging the video and highlighting (i.e reason for winning round "Good combination", video highlight at 1min 20sec of the round).

- They then push a button to confirm the score.

 

So now in this instance the judge has to highlight where they saw their round winning action that swayed them, justifying their reasoning....Its really easy at the moment for them to say "oh I though Jacobs had the busier round...10/9 to him".....but if they have a quick fire way to rewind the feed back to that moment that they saw the times he was more busy and highlight it...then he has reasoned his arguement and backed it up.

 

I thinkit's important to stress that these reasons and such don't have to be publically shown during or after the broadcast. Only if a result is deemed to have gone the wrong way do they get scrutinised and reviewed. And I think with the knowledge that they might be called to question, to explain their reasoning, would stop lazy scorecards and even some corruption. How can a judge award a fighter a round for some action that didn't occur?

 

This wont cut out ALL corruption, or bad judging for that matter......but it should probably make the judges think more and be on their toes knowing they could be called in to question.

 

Whether this could EVER be adopted is an entire different matter. There are a lot of old people running the sport and judging contest and they may not be tech savvy enough to use such a system......but then times change and things move on, maybe boxing should too and if they can't use the technology they are not fit for purpose!

 

Thoughts on this concept?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 105
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

I've had a similar discussion elsewhere and just can't see it being utilised at this point in time as it would take too long to keep going over some incidents and if you left it to the end of the bout then the crowd/tv audience are left waiting for a judge to finish viewing slow mo's angles etc etc. I do think we judging needs revising and to take some of your idea would have no problem with the 3 judges viewing the fight away from ringside (takes away the influence of 'home' crowds. on a larger screen. (No replay's etc so they watch it in real time still) and I would advocated that Judge's have to explain their decisions, especially in closely fought contests or with ridiculous scorelines (IJL the other week, and that lass who did Floyd/Canelo)

 

It would also help explain to the viewing audience's why some judge's preferred the defensive work rather than someone just pummelling forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- Well, the problem with technology is dealing with a paleolithic mentality that too often can't even add up the scorecards correctly or assign the correct blue and red corners as happened in the half billion dollar fight of Manny/TUE.

 

There are some things happening like the WBC open scoring and mandatory weighins needed for prefight intervals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

There are lots of ways to make boxing scoring more legit.

 

The problem is, the powers-that-be simply don't WANT this. They like things just as they are, where they can manipulate things for profit.

 

Kinda' like politics in the USA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Judging in boxing is always going to be controversial as like referring (no matter what is put in place humans make mistakes and fans always have their own personal views on a fight).

 

It's not like other sports were a lot of controversial decisions can be solved by video replays.

 

I don't know what the answer is but too many mistakes get made in boxing. Boxing will always have corruption and mixed views and opinions - It's not an easy fix.

 

Until we have 1 governing body in place to make decisions nothing will change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

I've had a similar discussion elsewhere and just can't see it being utilised at this point in time as it would take too long to keep going over some incidents and if you left it to the end of the bout then the crowd/tv audience are left waiting for a judge to finish viewing slow mo's angles etc etc

 

Nope, the system for looking back at footage and referencing a "point of action" would only need to be done for rounds where it was a close round. The judge should be paying attention and noting down roughly at the point in the round they see they action....The UI could be intuitive so its quick and easy to slide back to the time of the round he marked down on his pad and highlight the spot of the action. It would be very quick and doable in the minute between rounds.

 

Rounds where a knockdown happened, or it was just simply a one sided round simply dont need all that attention....They simply mark it 10 - 9...Reason being 1 sided downdown, knockdown etc...

It doesnt need to be highlighted due to it being an obvious round to score.

 

--- Well, the problem with technology is dealing with a paleolithic mentality that too often can't even add up the scorecards correctly or assign the correct blue and red corners as happened in the half billion dollar fight of Manny/TUE.

 

Of course it relies on people being able to use such crazy software. It wouldn't be too difficult to have an IT wizz on hand, sat there with the judge to do it all quickly until it became more well drilled and the judges became accustomed to the system.

 

Longer term give them training...Make it mandatory if they wish to continue being a referee or judge.

 

 

There are lots of ways to make boxing scoring more legit.

 

The problem is, the powers-that-be simply don't WANT this. They like things just as they are, where they can manipulate things for profit.

 

Kinda' like politics in the USA.

 

Name all of these ways then!?

 

I'm sure there will be people within the sport who dont want technology that might disrupt the applecart! But why not at least try for revolution!

 

 

Judging in boxing is always going to be controversial as like referring (no matter what is put in place humans make mistakes and fans always have their own personal views on a fight).

 

It's not like other sports were a lot of controversial decisions can be solved by video replays.

 

I don't know what the answer is but too many mistakes get made in boxing. Boxing will always have corruption and mixed views and opinions - It's not an easy fix.

 

Until we have 1 governing body in place to make decisions nothing will change.

 

I said at the very start it won't eradicate corruption and shit decision....and since boxing is so subjective it will always enjoy some controversiality....

 

HOWEVER, I am thinking of a system here that makes the JUDGES accountable for the scorecards where currently they simply are not! If there is a system in place whereby they have to define some decisions they make and they could later be questioned on if it was a bit iffy, it might just eradicate SOME of the shit judges we have involved in the sport.

 

It's clear there will never be 1 overruling and fair governing body. It's got too complex and too many fingers in the pie for that! But these smaller solutions could be put in place.

 

As said above, why not look for revolution in the sport, instead of sitting back and accepting these huge flaws in the sport and moaning about it on an internet forum?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

One of the reasons listed in why they won the round WOULD NOT be "belt holder". That's not a reason to award a close round ;-)

 

Actuually, I might make a working demo web app! Could be a good and interesting project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- There you go. You could replace the current punch monkeys in use. However the biggest prob is pro scoring emphasizing clean, power moving to fencing style touches without a change in written rules with refs controlling the tempo.

 

Or in other words garbage in newtechnology, see punch monkeys, garbage out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- There you go. You could replace the current punch monkeys in use. However the biggest prob is pro scoring emphasizing clean, power moving to fencing style touches without a change in written rules with refs controlling the tempo.

 

Or in other words garbage in newtechnology, see punch monkeys, garbage out.

 

I think the biggest problem, forgetting that nobody is actually TRYING to have accurate scoring, is the judges (and the punch-stat input monkeys) not having a clue when they see good head slips. The amount of slipped punches that end up getting scored as points is stunning.

 

Canelo - Lara is a great example, even though the right man won.

 

Almost as bad is how often they score punches that were 80-90% blocked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

You may have a point. Sometimes those little moments have big impact on your scoring. I remember WBC used replay to confirm headbutt in Wlodarczyk-Drozd fight, but I haven't seen it since then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Think we should start off by having judges have to explain there scorecards and why x,y or z won the round (especially in close ones)

 

With utilising video technology, start it off small to allow judges to see cuts caused by clash of heads etc (doesn't the ref at the moment choose it) and then slowly go from there. Think you would have to be careful that it wasn't being overused to the extreme to change a decision (ie super dopper slow mo fights)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- There you go. You could replace the current punch monkeys in use. However the biggest prob is pro scoring emphasizing clean, power moving to fencing style touches without a change in written rules with refs controlling the tempo.

 

Or in other words garbage in newtechnology, see punch monkeys, garbage out.

 

Again this isn't about perfecting how contests are judged. It's always been about opinions and where opinions determine the outcome of a result there will always be poor judgement, opposite opinions and likely corruption.

 

All this system is doing is making the judges more transparent in their reasoning for scoring a fight, with a real possibility for them being questioned about why they scored a particular round as they did.

 

 

I think the biggest problem, forgetting that nobody is actually TRYING to have accurate scoring, is the judges.

 

This is exactly the reasoning behind this....."Accurate scoring" is an impossibility when its all about a judges opinion. And since the biggest problem is in fact the judges themselves lets have more scrutiny over them and call them to account if a ridiculous scorecard has been made.

 

You may have a point. Sometimes those little moments have big impact on your scoring. I remember WBC used replay to confirm headbutt in Wlodarczyk-Drozd fight, but I haven't seen it since then.

 

A good point, replays to determine if a cut was accidental or via a genuine punch makes absolute sense to utilise.

 

 

 

My system here though isn't about allowing the judges to use super slow motion to clarify what they see at all.....here's my scenario.....

 

- It's a world title fight.....it's round 4....Fighter A is the belt holder and the house fighter the promoter of the whole card's main man......Fighter B is the challenger.

 

- Fuck all is happening in this round. They both started the fight fast, it has been an even contest and this round they are off the pace a little, but really not a lot is happening....Bits of jabbing, a few scrappy missed shots followed by a clinch, that type of thing.

 

- At 1 minute 50 seconds in, Fighter B slips a jab nicely and lands a snappy body shot and a quick jab to the face as he moves back and away. The belt holder Fighter A doesn't really flinch much, but it was about the cleanest two shots of the round. But the round fizzles out as it began.

 

-----------------------------

 

NOW....the current system the judges can pass this off as a 10-9 round for the title holder, the man whos promoter has put on the show, despite him doing nothing...it was a close round, and they dont have to justify it.....

 

BUT in reality the only bit of action was done by the challenger...as short and seemingly insignificant as it was, it was the only bit of action in that round that anyone can point to as score worthy action.

 

Sure, some of the judges may miss this little section of "action", but they would still have to come up with some explanation of why that round was won by either guy, or they call it 10/10 if there is no justifiable reason.

 

For a judge paying attention to this bout:

- At the time of that little flurry he glances at his tablet computer which shows the round timer, & jots it on his notepad.

- At the end of the round his interface will get him to give a score for each fighter

- Next to this is a list of selectable reasons.

- The judge selects the "good combination" (or something along those lines) reason.

- To one side there is the live video. The just can drag the video time marker to the 1min 50 seconds point of the round (he noted this down at the time).

- There will be a "flag" or "highltight" button to flag up the specific part of the round he is making reference to.

- He then clicks the confirm scores button.

 

All of this is now automated so there is no delay at the end of the fight as they are calculating scores, and how many times have we seen big delays and discussion in that, and photos of dodgy crossed out scores etc?

 

We hear time and time again that there were many close rounds so the 118-112 card seems a bit off...and how mnay of those rounds may have just favoured the champion fighter just because that seems to be reason enough to award a round.

 

Of course a judge may have scored that round for the champion and stated a reason, maybe good defence work or something...and if the result of the bout wasn't at all controversial, his decision and reasoning for his score in that particular round may never be questioned. But with that posibility always in mind, it could eradicate some bias and unreasoned scoring.

 

IF they had a tablet for score and they HAD to explain their decision for each round, we might eliminate that kind of "invincibility" factor the judges currently enjoy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Think we should start off by having judges have to explain there scorecards and why x,y or z won the round (especially in close ones)

 

With utilising video technology, start it off small to allow judges to see cuts caused by clash of heads etc (doesn't the ref at the moment choose it) and then slowly go from there. Think you would have to be careful that it wasn't being overused to the extreme to change a decision (ie super dopper slow mo fights)

 

Your first line is EXACTLY the idea I am trying to implement with this tablet scoring app which includes reasons and flagged evidence for scoring points.

 

Your second point is valid....Things would likely have to be slowly introduced...and also there is that issue of who decides on these things being implemented? Is it the ABC bodies, the promotion companies, the state commission or BBBoC, TV companies?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

The more i think about it, the more it would be a cracking idea, if you do get a little prototype thing done up i'd be interested in seeing it Ton, you never know, you might be onto the next big thing to change the sport. (No joke either)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Scientists put microchips in all kinds of things these days. Even vets put them in cats and dogs and mechanics in cars. Could put them in humans heads and then it could recall the blows. Or an even beter idea, put one in each glove and then you would get super acurate hits.

 

Technology is wonderful in this day and age. Remember watching Buck Rogers and they hand non contact boxing - was scored my lazer light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- As to implanted micro chips, people already using them and soon you won't hold a job unless you agree to the company chip implant.

 

And then we get into mandatory gene implants and manipulations of the fetus to create young übermensches. Hitler was born into the wrong era. Today his megalomania would be seen as normal aspiration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Scientists put microchips in all kinds of things these days. Even vets put them in cats and dogs and mechanics in cars. Could put them in humans heads and then it could recall the blows. Or an even beter idea, put one in each glove and then you would get super acurate hits.

 

Technology is wonderful in this day and age. Remember watching Buck Rogers and they hand non contact boxing - was scored my lazer light.

 

See my first post where I mention punch tracking using technology similar to the Hawkeye system which is used in football to trace if the ball has crossed the line, in tennis to again determine if a ball has landed within the lines and it also tracks the direction and bounce angle of the ball, and in snooker to show the position a player might be stuck in, as well how certain shots should be played....

 

With some adaptions for boxing I see no reason why such technology can't be utilised to show, without doubt whether a punch actually lands, where on the body it lands and with what force.....totting up accurate punch stats, not ones reliant on a person watching and prone to human error.

 

Oh and welcome to the forum by the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Looking generally at the judging' question. How many judges are there in Nevada? I still see the same 8-10 names. Is it that hard to have more qualified judges, instead of having 80-years old juding the fights?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Looking generally at the judging' question. How many judges are there in Nevada? I still see the same 8-10 names. Is it that hard to have more qualified judges, instead of having 80-years old juding the fights?

 

There is probably an old boys club at the top level of most commisions and boxing boards which could do with overhauling. Of cource this is problematic and the stubborn old twats wont budge easy. There is a similar situation at the top of the English FA, full of old bastards unwilling to change and move with the times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

There is probably an old boys club at the top level of most commisions and boxing boards which could do with overhauling. Of cource this is problematic and the stubborn old twats wont budge easy. There is a similar situation at the top of the English FA, full of old bastards unwilling to change and move with the times.

 

Yes, it looks like someone becomes a judge, then he's totally untouchable. It's too rare to see bad judges be suspended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

Just bumping this thread up as I have begun developing the concept of my idea for the boxing judging app in a fairly basic format.....

 

It is mostly a project for me to develop my skills with a new web development framework (new ones are always coming out and I need to learn shit to keep "relevant" in my field), but I figured it could potentially become something that could be put out on the web for boxing fans to use if nothing else further within the boxing higher ups.

 

Anyway since this is the only boxing forum I come on, and I value (most) members' opinions, it would be good to get some ideas and input from you good people.

 

So the concept is that as well as awarding points to each boxer, the judge, or person using the app gives a reasoning behind it.

 

As such I want the app to allow the person to tap in their score for each fighter and then after that is the "reason for scoring" part. I need a list of valid reasons to award the scores as they did. So there might be reasons listed such as:

 

Multiple Knockdowns (For a score of 10-7 or less for instance)

Knockdown (As a reason for a 10-8 round)

On the front foot majority of round

Great defensive work

Busier than opponent

Even round (Either nothing at all in particular happened, or it was an even slugfest, 10-10 awarded)

etc

etc

etc

 

 

There could be an array of reasons really...but it would be good to get a pretty conclusive list of maybe 10-12 reasons why a round might be won by a fighter.....

 

The most conclusive reasons would be listed at the top...such as the knockdowns....these rounds are clear and the score is reflected probably across the board of judges.....

 

The part of the concept where I mentioned hightlighting certain parts of the video feed would be required for the more vague reasons that the round has been awarded. For instance if there was something in the list along the lines of "Good punch combination" and that was really the only thing in the round of note to be the reason chosen, it would require a video time highlight/bookmark.

 

I am not sure yet how that integration would work, and worry about it at a future stage. But it is those reasons I need to get down for the next stage.

 

So please come up with a list of valid reasons why judges would award a round......And think aboutit in multiple contexts, from those rounds which are dominated by fighter, to those where it is tight and cagey....

 

I will correlate all the suggestions and choose the best fitting 12 or so......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

1. Multiple knockdowns (10-7 round)

2. Knockdown (10-8 round)

3. Full domination (10-8 round w/o knockdown)

4. Domination (a big advantage in number and power of landed shots) (10-9 round)

5. Effectivness (hard shots landed by one fighter) (10-9 round)

6. Output (minor advantage in number of landed shots) (10-9 round)

7. Ring generalship (agressiveness. effective strategy) (10-9 round)

 

I based this list on the factors I keep in my mind when I score a fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- As long as the 10 point must system remains and no even rds can be scored, it will be garbage in, garbage out much like the punch monkeys that followed this atrocity.

 

design a system that awards point by point to fighters based on what they do and start scoring fights yourself, maybe you can revolutionize boxing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Use of Technology in boxing - Could this idea bring judges to account?

 

--- As long as the 10 point must system remains and no even rds can be scored, it will be garbage in, garbage out much like the punch monkeys that followed this atrocity.

 

design a system that awards point by point to fighters based on what they do and start scoring fights yourself, maybe you can revolutionize boxing.

 

Is no even rounds a rule? I use it i.e no one does nothing then I score it 10-10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...