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Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.


chaconfan
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Does anyone agree that Marciano was only unbeaten because he was lucky?

He was lucky for these reasons;

1. He got to his title shot by beating mostly unknowns. Guys with as many as 57 losses!

2. He got a decision over Roland LaStarza that was "universally criticised" as being unfair. The fact that Marciano's manager was the matchmaker for Madison square garden, was the major reason as to why Rocky was gifted it.

3. He fought a 37 old for the title, who already had 16 losses. # Side note, a man at 37 in those days was a lot more worn out than todays equivalent, having a much tougher life, and many more gruelling fights, plus they were 15 rounders back then, as some younger readers might not be aware.

4. His title defences were against either old men (some sources list Moore as 45) or men who had moved up in weight, or both. Cockell had been stopped by former middleweight Randy Turpin, and looked like the worst title challenger in history...although he did have guts.

5. Of his 6 defences, 3 were against guys he had already beaten and if we include his title win, his 7 opponents had 87 losses between them, often inflicted by light heavies and even middles.

6. His nose injury suffered in the Charles bout was easily bad enough for the fight to be stopped, and if the injury was on Charles, I think it is safe to say that the fight would have been stopped.

7. He didn't want anything to do with Liston, and was challenged by Patterson, who was young, unlike all the men he had been beating, and had been looking awesome, which was later backed up by his performance against Moore, in comparison to Rocky's. He therefore retired younger than his title challengers.

Any decent prospect could beat 49-0, if they were matched right, and if that was the only goal. Hell, line me up 50 90 year olds, and hopefully, I would beat it!

Hope you enjoyed the article. I am not looking to diss anyone, nor am I looking for arguments, just want to see what others think.

Edited by chaconfan
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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Some good points there Chacon, I think we're seeing with Wilder at the moment what can be done with certain matchmaking and if you look at certain opponents lately that have 20 - 30 unbeaten fights and then get hammered off up and comers you can see how it can be manufactured.

 

alas I don't know that much about Rocky (my history is woeful in all honesty (apart from the matchstick man) other than his record so can't comment on how good he was. Might be worth a look if i get time though :-)

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Some good points there Chacon, I think we're seeing with Wilder at the moment what can be done with certain matchmaking and if you look at certain opponents lately that have 20 - 30 unbeaten fights and then get hammered off up and comers you can see how it can be manufactured.

 

alas I don't know that much about Rocky (my history is woeful in all honesty (apart from the matchstick man) other than his record so can't comment on how good he was. Might be worth a look if i get time though :-)

If you have little knowlege of boxing history, you are lucky. This means you have years of great people to discover. Have a look at some of these guys, if you like.

Wilfredo Gomez

Bobby Chacon

Matthew Saad Muhammad

Dwight Muhammad Qawi

Ricardo Lopez

Matthew Hilton

Salvador Sanchez

I mentioned these guys because they aren't big names to someone who is not into boxing history, and knew there was no point listing people like Ali.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

I don't think any prospect beating 49-0 would hold much leverage or fame. Julio Cesar Chavez smashed it back in the day and don't remember much fanfare when reading KO, The Ring, Boxing News. The 49-0 is more aimed at Heavyweights - if you've studied the sport, as I have.

 

I certainly agree that Rocky Marciano is overrated and said the same back on the BBC Boxing Boards (5Live & 606) back in 2002 and a bit later Boxing Banter forum. Agree, with all the OP's points on Marciano - reminds me a bit of Wladimr Klitschko - no real challengers around and didn't always take the toughest fights.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Oh boy...I better not reply here. You won't like it! I'm even tempted to close this thread but then Mr. Grumpy will get grumpy. I think this is simply disrespecting a man whose greatness has been PROVEN. I don't care what YOU think, I mean, I personally think Larry Holmes is overrated, but I wouldn't get no respect if I said that, right? But Rocky...a white boy, small heavyweight, fought old guys, bla bla bla. Depends what you mean by overrated anyway, but I think he's the ideal target for revisionist and angry black guys. The fact that he knocked out Jersey Joe with one punch says it all. After 12 rounds of lagging. I rest my case.

 

P.S. And the thing about Liston, he WAS NOT a top ranked heavyweight or a mandatory before Rocky hung up the gloves.

Edited by BoztheMadman
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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

reminds me a bit of Wladimr Klitschko - no real challengers around and didn't always take the toughest fights.

 

When was the last time the diviion was filled with prime contenders? Early Tyson?

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

When was the last time the diviion was filled with prime contenders? Early Tyson?

 

Lennox Lewis era, Tyson and Holmes eras. There was certainly a draught in Marciano's era and the same for most of Wladimir's reign - Calvin Brock and David Haye his best contenders?

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

You should reply Boz, both sides of the coin help people like me who want to learn a bit more but can't (too lazy or can't access ;-) and plus personally I prefer hearing fans opinions and their reasons for it.

Can you expand on a couple of things for me though

Other than the 49-0, how has his greatness been proven? and in your eyes how is it different from Larry Holmes.

 

Agree with you on the overrated bit as it depends on how your judging him on being overrated, myself having little knowledge of the time can only go off what others have said and whilst his record is said to be admired it's been mentioned before that some of the calibre of his opponents was not entirely up to par.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Lennox Lewis era, Tyson and Holmes eras. There was certainly a draught in Marciano's era and the same for most of Wladimir's reign - Calvin Brock and David Haye his best contenders?

 

Tony Thompson and Alexander Povetkin over Haye and Brock for me, but there's not a rich list of quality options avoided - he fought pretty much everyone during a poor era, but I've never personally witnessed a strong heavyweight division, having become a proper fan at the end of the 1990s.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Tony Thompson and Alexander Povetkin over Haye and Brock for me, but there's not a rich list of quality options avoided - he fought pretty much everyone during a poor era, but I've never personally witnessed a strong heavyweight division, having become a proper fan at the end of the 1990s.

 

Looking at Wladimir's record I'd say the following were good wins against good opponents, that weren't faded.

 

Chris Byrd

Jameel McCline

Samuel Peter

Calvin Brock

Sultan Ibragimov

Tony Thompson

Ruslan Chagaev

David Haye

Alexander Povetkin

Kubrat Pulev

Bryant Jennings

 

I don't know how many of these guys would make the Top 50 Heavyweights of all-time?

 

Holmes era was full of names but he didn't fight most of them - am sure LRR can give you chapter and verse on that. The 90's I regard as the 2nd strongest in history, as you had Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Moorer, Tua, Morrison, Ruddock, Mercer in and around their primes.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Looking at Wladimir's record I'd say the following were good wins against good opponents, that weren't faded.

 

Chris Byrd

Jameel McCline

Samuel Peter

Calvin Brock

Sultan Ibragimov

Tony Thompson

Ruslan Chagaev

David Haye

Alexander Povetkin

Kubrat Pulev

Bryant Jennings

 

I don't know how many of these guys would make the Top 50 Heavyweights of all-time?

Nor do I, but then are Tua, Mercer, Moorer and the like going to be top 50? Holyfield perhaps, but then there's evidence he should be disqualified as a drug cheat, so I dunno.

 

Also Chagaev was a shadow of his former self when Klitschko fought him - late replacement or otherwise. We never found out the cuase of his long medical layoff, but he was never the same fighter.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

I think the unbeaten record does make him look better then he probably was and is padded somewhat but the division was fairly weak at the time. There's no one glaringly obvious that he ducked (unlike Dempsey or Holmes). He definitely didn't avoid Liston. When Rocky retired, Liston had only had 13 fights.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

--- Boxing has always had these old wives tales passed around like venereal disease by those less inclined towards critical thinking.. Nothing wrong with not liking certain fighters, but no need for deliberate falsehoods that mankind has always been plagued with.

 

Rocky beat 2 Ring ranked contenders before winning an title eliminator against top Ring ranked LH Harry Matthews, who like Moore liked to mix in with heavies. Rocky fought 4 HOFers in 6 fights considered alltime classics with a 6-0, 5 KO record to show for it. No wonder tubby Lar couldn't carry Rocky's jock. My next door neighbor didn't really follow boxing, but he can recite Rocky's 49-0, 43 KO iconic record like clockwork just like Babe Ruth's 60 HR. And no, his record ain't padded with a dozen fights against his brother has used to be a staple of these old wives tales. As amateurs, he and his brother fought a series of exhibitions in New England that aren't even listed as part of his ama record of 9-4, 7 KO. Nor is his military ama record listed, but he won at least one army title the year he was discharged in 1947. First pro bout in 1947, 2nd in 1948, yet by 1952 he was champ. The era does seem weak because of the decimation of men from WW2. I would think anyone could figure this out.

 

1. Rocky was a regional fighter in the Northeast US. Most of the fighters were well known to the then avid boxing fans, and most of the fighters had more wins and losses than today's buttercups because they had to fight every month or even week as required. Rocky arrived in the Ring top 10 in 1950 when he beat the undefeated LaStarza who was ranked. Joe Louis was #1 that year and Charles the champ.

 

2. The first LaStarza decision was controversial, not unfair not unlike his first Ted Lowry fight, the guy with 57 losses and even more wins who would probably hold a LH belt today. At any rate, he gave both rematches, whipped Lowry fairly, and utterly ruined LaStarza for the rest of his career in a horrific beat down.

 

3. Jersey Joe was the undisputed champ, so who was Rocky supposed to fight for the title, Cinderfella?

 

4. Rocky's title defenses were all Ring ranked. Old man Moore had beat Nino Valdes in Nevada for a share of the title split off by Nevada bosses, so Rocky actually unified a title, something tubby Lar never did.

 

5. Rematches were where the money was and all were Ring ranked. He'd have been accused of ducking the rematches like tubby Lar did against Norton had he been in this more shameful era.

 

6. His nose was bad enough that the ref gave him one more round to fight, so he knocked out Charles in a classic comeback. It was the fairest type of warning a ref can give.

 

7. Yeah, Rocky didn't want to get sent up for 2 years in the penitentiary where Sonny lived from 1956-58...Duh! Liston was polishing off his trilogy with little Marty Marshall in 1956 before prison and never Ring rated until 1958. Patterson was not Ring Ranked until after Rocky retired in 1956 and he had to win an eliminator for the right to face an older even more beat up Archie Moore than Rocky beat. It reads like comedy that later Ali would fight an even older Moore to get his first Ring ranking. Sublime hilarity this topic is, a big thanks.

 

Tubby Lar is the one lucky to go 48-0 because the first time he faced a standing champ holding a title he got well whooped and has a miserable record in that regard, 0-5. Couldn't hack it Rocky's era for sure, and no Jack Dempsey didn't duck anyone, didn't plaster his gloves against Willard, more old wives tales.

 

As to Wlad, historically everyone always moaned about their era being weak while pining for the good ol' days. You look at Wlad's title comp, and most everyone would whomp every other champ's challengers by a good measure because of the new size differential. When Fitz won his title in 1857(typo should be 1897), the heavyweight limit was 154+ lbs for a reference. It's only been the last 30 years that we saw 175+ cruisers weeded out of the heavy division because of the potential liability of gross mismatches, not that mismatches have disappeared. Even sub 215 lb heavies are rare these days.

 

Here's what Rocky did to a fellow 6-4 prospect, Carmine Vingo, 16-1, who was put on a death watch after this bout and suffered debilitation the rest of his surprisingly long life, RIP 2015, 85 years old.

 

http://static.boxrec.com/thumb/e/eb/Rocky_Marciano_vs._Carmine_Vingo_._Fasan.jpg/350px-Rocky_Marciano_vs._Carmine_Vingo_._Fasan.jpg

Edited by LondonRingRules
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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Harry Wills was avoided by Dempsey though I concede that this was by his promoter and manager rather than Dempsey himself. I believe that they signed to fight (twice?) but public pressure put a stop to it.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

--- Gotta resident boxrec Harry Greb expert who insists Dempsey ducked greb, not Wills.

 

But point in fact Jack was making more money in Hollywood than he could make in boxing after dumping Kearns and Rickard to fruitlessly sign to fight Wills. That fight was never able to clear the national politics needed to secure financing for the fight. Jack took along sparmate and friend Bill Tate with him to stay in training for a fight that never materialized. Hollywood objected to a black man living in their midst, so Jack gave him chaffeur status to quell the unrest which was an added bonus for Tate to be able to drive whatever fancy set of wheels Jack was sporting.

 

Jack considerably more advanced in his day than most people today.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

--- Gotta resident boxrec Harry Greb expert who insists Dempsey ducked greb, not Wills.

 

But point in fact Jack was making more money in Hollywood than he could make in boxing after dumping Kearns and Rickard to fruitlessly sign to fight Wills. That fight was never able to clear the national politics needed to secure financing for the fight. Jack took along sparmate and friend Bill Tate with him to stay in training for a fight that never materialized. Hollywood objected to a black man living in their midst, so Jack gave him chaffeur status to quell the unrest which was an added bonus for Tate to be able to drive whatever fancy set of wheels Jack was sporting.

 

Jack considerably more advanced in his day than most people today.

Yeah I've got no issue with Dempsey merely the prevailing politcal climate of the time. I think he was the kind of guy who would whoever he was put in with. BTW I don't think for a minute he ducked Greb. Greb, while undoubtedly an all time great, has a reputation that greatly benefits from nobody alive actually having seen him fight! It's difficult to visualise a pressure fighter conceding 30+ lbs to Dempsey not getting a bit a battering. Remember the Tunney rematches were fairly conclusive defeats
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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

--- Have you ever watched the Tunney fights? I found them quite competitive with Jack taking stick much like Golovkin for not knocking out a fighter with great talents.

Golovkin shouldn't be criticised for not knocking out Jacobs (except for his implication he was going easy on him) but he should be criticised for not throwing enough and waiting too long.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Good post. I never did see the "magic" in Marciano's 49-0, given that he fought in what was arguably one of the worst Heavyweight eras of all-time. Had he come along during the forties when Louis, Walcott, etc. had been in their primes, there's no way his pristine record exists. Had he come along ten-years-later during the sixties, I have some serious doubts he even holds the title. Floyd Patterson followed him as Champ, that's how weak the HW scene was, and as Chacon points out, anyone who struggled with a Roland LaStarza couldn't have been much. A good sized HW that can move and take a punch beats him every time, just that luck for him there weren't any.

 

Btw, I will defend him on charges of ducking Liston, at the time he retired Liston was still in the learning stage (aka coming back from the Marshall upset). The REAL Sonny dodging came later on when Cus D'Amato was doing everything he could to keep Patterson on the throne.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

--- To be fair Dave, Cus was refusing to fight any mafia fighters that led to Floyd's weak reign. They fell out about Liston with both holding the moral high ground.

 

And I'd point out Walcott was noted for his footwork and Charles was hardly shabby on the discipline. End of the day a fighter can do no more than fight in his era, and Ali struggling against Cooper, jones, Wepner, young, ect, hardly lends confidence as the greatest that Rocky never claimed for himself.

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Joe Louis had a disputed decision win against Arturo Godoy and was being outboxed easily by Billy Conn for 13 rounds. Holmes was beaten by Witherspoon and Williams in the eyes of many. Yet nobody ever makes much a case out of this. I wonder how come...

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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Joe Louis had a disputed decision win against Arturo Godoy and was being outboxed easily by Billy Conn for 13 rounds. Holmes was beaten by Witherspoon and Williams in the eyes of many. Yet nobody ever makes much a case out of this. I wonder how come...
Don't forget the first Walcott fight. Louis was floored twice and was on his way out of the ring before the verdict was announced so convinced was he that he'd lost.
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Re: Being unbeaten does not make you the best. Rocky Marciano.

 

Carmen Vingo was only a 6-8 rd fighter. He fought Marciano in his first 10 rounder, and his opponents records were as follows

6-0

8W-8L-1D

2W-19L

4W-9L

2W-1D.. and he lost to this guy

15-12-2

6-2

3-9-1

7-3

2-6

17-4-1

15-16-2

5-5

5-7

16-2

9-18

And in the bout before he fought Rocky he fought a guy in his debut 0-0

Vingo was more suited for basketball, being 6ft 4 but only weighing 188lbs.

He may have knocked out Joe Walcott with one punch (after being thoroughly outboxed for the whole fight) but Joe had already been beaten 16 times with two draws and was 37 years old, so he was bound to slow down eventually. Also being 37 in the fifties was older than being 37 these days. People did not live as long, had much harder lives and fought longer, harder bouts.

If anyone wants to authenticate whether or not Marciano ducked Patterson, they can google sports illustrated Jan 1956 issue, it is online.

With regards Liston, I am not going off anything other than a few things I read and something I was told, by someone I respect as being honest and unbiased.

Someone pointed out Liston had only 15 fights when Marciano retired, but why would that be a reason not to fight him? Specially since Vingo had only had 17, and one of those was a loss. Floyd Patterson fought a guy whilst world champion, who was having his pro debut.

I know that if I was Rocky and had been decked by a 45 year old light heavy, I would want no part of Liston.

Apparently matchmakers tried to make the fight just before Liston went into jail for a stint, and Marciano wanted no part of it. I can not confirm this, it is just something I was told.

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