Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

It's the thirtieth anniversary in April. I have very fond memories of this fight mainly because I'd just turned 18 and this was the first fight I bet on. I put a tenner on Leonard at odds of 4 - 1. I still see it as one of the great performances of all time but also one to this day still mystifies. Why did Hagler fight orthodox for the first four rounds? He basically handed Leonard a 4 point advantage. I've never seen Marvin or his team explain their choice of tactics.

Rob-

As far as the betting is concerned, I recall reading in Sports Illustrated after the fight that it was a rare circumstance of falling odds and some people cleaning up. When it was first announced, the odds were 16-1 Hagler, based mostly on Leonard not having fought for 3.5 since the disappointment against Kevin Howard. By the time of the fight, odds had dropped to 4-1 (which is what you had). If a wise person bet the same amount on Leonard early on and Hagler later on, then they basically had a free bet on Leonard.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Rob-

As far as the betting is concerned, I recall reading in Sports Illustrated after the fight that it was a rare circumstance of falling odds and some people cleaning up. When it was first announced, the odds were 16-1 Hagler, based mostly on Leonard not having fought for 3.5 since the disappointment against Kevin Howard. By the time of the fight, odds had dropped to 4-1 (which is what you had). If a wise person bet the same amount on Leonard early on and Hagler later on, then they basically had a free bet on Leonard.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

--- Marv had arrived at a point in time where he was fully invested in his boxing ability and wanted to prove he could outbox SRL like Hearns had done.

Unfortunately he had no inkling that Ray had been in intensive training for a year with several private fights involving a rotating cast of substituting contenders during the fights. In short, Ray was in the finest tune as opposed to mediocre media mush claiming he would be rusty.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

That would have been nice but unfortunately I only turned 18 a week before the fight. I thought Leonard had a great chance purely based on Marvin's flat footed performance against Mugabe and his inactivity (2 fight in 2 and 1/2 years).

Yeah, you saw the same thing that SRL saw against Mugabi, and your right that once there's ring rust then it doesn't get much worse with time. Not much difference between 16-months and 3 years. Hagler took it easy after the Hearns fight and he wasn't a guy who was used to long layoffs between fights. IMO, the biggest edge Ray had was won in negotiations: Thumbless gloves that MMH wasn't used to, the 12 round limit which wasn't yet standard (Hagler could've insisted on it, screw the WBC) and a large ring that resembled the Grand Canyon. The Petronellis took extra money and gave in on the major issues....big mistake!

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I remember watching it on ITV Big Fight Live. Must've been about 14. Thought Hagler won at the time but on later viewings have it for Sugar Ray. Huge build-up to the fight.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Leonard certainly won the mind games in preparing for his return, and only returned when he sussed Haglers mental fragility at the time and his relative inactivity. Masterplan in manipulating Hagler with the constant dangling carrot of Leonards return and recognition of being the undisputed best of a golden generation. Strange fight with a bitter aftertaste for Hagler. Worked so hard for his title, yet Leonard happily discarded it without remorse. Still a great fight between two greats. I only wish I was old enough to have appreciated the build-up and the warranted hype at the time

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I remember watching it on ITV Big Fight Live. Must've been about 14. Thought Hagler won at the time but on later viewings have it for Sugar Ray. Huge build-up to the fight.

I am not calling you a liar or trying to diss you in any way, but the big fight live, was not a live showing of this fight. I had to go to the Apollo theater in Manchester to watch it. I was working nights and made an excuse and got in a taxi, a work colleague had been telling me that he was coming with me, but backed out at the last second, leaving me to go on my own. I still have a T.shirt and program, if anyone is interested in buying them.

I was and still am a massive fan of both guys (and have met both) but there was no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Ray won that fight. Hagler looked like he was punching through treacle.

Sorry Marv.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Leonard certainly won the mind games in preparing for his return, and only returned when he sussed Haglers mental fragility at the time and his relative inactivity. Masterplan in manipulating Hagler with the constant dangling carrot of Leonards return and recognition of being the undisputed best of a golden generation. Strange fight with a bitter aftertaste for Hagler. Worked so hard for his title, yet Leonard happily discarded it without remorse. Still a great fight between two greats. I only wish I was old enough to have appreciated the build-up and the warranted hype at the time

I don't know when you posted this, but I hope it was before I took the trouble to explain all the details surrounding this fight.Hagler did not have a fragile mentality. You also said in another post that Leonard knew Hagler was untrained and unmotivated, which was NEVER the case in Marvin's whole career.

Leonard could not have fought him earlier, and did not discard the title without remorse. He clearly said before the fight, it was for one fight only. Hagler was desperate for the fight, and was so confident that he even tried to win by out boxing the master boxer, in an orthodox style, when he was normally a southpaw.

A peak, and active Leonard, who was a natural middle and not a pumped up welter, was capable of beating anyone in history. Also a great guy. I have a story about him that made me so happy, and I will never forget it.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

That would have been nice but unfortunately I only turned 18 a week before the fight. I thought Leonard had a great chance purely based on Marvin's flat footed performance against Mugabe and his inactivity (2 fight in 2 and 1/2 years).

Leonard had only one fight in 5 years and was not a natural middleweight. On top of that, he had surgery for detached retina. In Hagler's last two fights, he had had his two most exciting bouts of his career, and had (scarily) easily destroyed Leonard's toughest opponent. Whilst Ray had been floored for the first time, by an unknown in HIS last fight. Add to this, Ray had nearly been KO'd by Quincy Taylor in the gym, and then you can appreciate just what an incredible win it was. Yes he did get the fight in circumstances that suited him, but Marvin and his team, did not have to accept the terms, and were paid for the concessions too.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

It's the thirtieth anniversary in April. I have very fond memories of this fight mainly because I'd just turned 18 and this was the first fight I bet on. I put a tenner on Leonard at odds of 4 - 1. I still see it as one of the great performances of all time but also one to this day still mystifies. Why did Hagler fight orthodox for the first four rounds? He basically handed Leonard a 4 point advantage. I've never seen Marvin or his team explain their choice of tactics.

Hope you find this useful. If you get out a stopwatch and watch those first four rounds again, just time the amount of time that he boxes southpaw and the amount he fights orthodox. He actually spends more time southpaw than orthodox. And they will never admit that the reason they tried to box orthodox was because he wanted to prove he was better than Ray, and that he could beat him at his own game.

He actually should have never tried to box with Leonard. He was never going to beat him that way. He should have roughed him up, should have leaned on him, tired him out. Having said all that, whatever anyone ever did, Ray would find a way to win. Please, no sarcastic references to the Norris and Camacho fights.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I am not calling you a liar or trying to diss you in any way, but the big fight live, was not a live showing of this fight. I had to go to the Apollo theater in Manchester to watch it. I was working nights and made an excuse and got in a taxi, a work colleague had been telling me that he was coming with me, but backed out at the last second, leaving me to go on my own. I still have a T.shirt and program, if anyone is interested in buying them.

I was and still am a massive fan of both guys (and have met both) but there was no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Ray won that fight. Hagler looked like he was punching through treacle.

Sorry Marv.

Would've been on delay on ITV. In those days they could show things a few days later and you'd be none the wiser i.e no spoilers. Definitely watched it in my house. Didn't realise they had closed circuit in the UK (knew of it in America). How much did it cost you and was it on late?

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Would've been on delay on ITV. In those days they could show things a few days later and you'd be none the wiser i.e no spoilers. Definitely watched it in my house. Didn't realise they had closed circuit in the UK (knew of it in America). How much did it cost you and was it on late?

It cost me almost my job. I left work (I was on nights) without permission, plus a taxi there, taxi back, and the entrance fee. Not a clue what any of it cost. I also still have the T.shirt and program, and maybe a poster.

A work colleague let me down, but I still brought him a T.shirt, and some black guys tried to mug me, whilst I was waiting for the taxi, on the way back, in the early hours of the morning, but I ran over to a police van, and returned home with my treasure. I always remember the crowd laughing when Davey Moore was being interviewed after his loss to Lupe Aquino on the undercard. He said something like, "man, how they gonna stop a fight on a swollen eye?" It was massive! I then could not get a copy of that fight for years, apart from a b/w French secam version. I used to pay £25 for a three hour vhs and have to wait weeks before I saw a fight, but now thanks to guys like Selig and WSM, I am spoiled rotten. Nice talking to you and thanks for asking. Hope you are well, Andy.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Leonard had only one fight in 5 years and was not a natural middleweight. On top of that, he had surgery for detached retina. In Hagler's last two fights, he had had his two most exciting bouts of his career, and had (scarily) easily destroyed Leonard's toughest opponent. Whilst Ray had been floored for the first time, by an unknown in HIS last fight. Add to this, Ray had nearly been KO'd by Quincy Taylor in the gym, and then you can appreciate just what an incredible win it was. Yes he did get the fight in circumstances that suited him, but Marvin and his team, did not have to accept the terms, and were paid for the concessions too.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Hagler has a lot more miles on the clock then Leonard though with 66 fights as opposed to 34. Also the Hearns and Mugabe fights took an awful lot out of him. I still think Leonard's perfomance qualifies as the greatest comeback of all time.

I agree, but want to add that Marvin didn't really take a lot of punishment in getting those miles on the clock. People talk about his fight with Hearns as "the war" but in reality, it was only one round, (rds two and three did not see much damage done to him) and Marvin didn't even take a great deal of punishment even in that really, not compared to what Gatti and Ward took. Mugabi fight was tough, no question, but Leonard had been in wars with Hearns and Duran, that were longer, and tougher. Hearns was a lot faster and seemed to have far more snap on his punches when he fought Leonard than when he fought Marvin. His legs were over-trained (as confirmed by the very honest Emanuel Stewart) and were noticeably weak, and if you have weak legs, you can't punch as hard. Incredible that Hagler was never decked though don't you think? Haters will mention Roldan, but the replay showed it was clearly not a punch. He dipped and the punch missed, but the palm of the glove caught the back of his head, and pulled him forward. He jumped straight up, and was not remotely dazed.

Not forcing my opinions on you, or anyone else. If you don't agree, you don't agree.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Would've been on delay on ITV. In those days they could show things a few days later and you'd be none the wiser i.e no spoilers. Definitely watched it in my house. Didn't realise they had closed circuit in the UK (knew of it in America). How much did it cost you and was it on late?

"Nice talking to you and thanks for asking. Hope you are well, Andy."

Did you forget posts like this when accusing me of turning boxing debates into stories about myself, that no one is interested in?

I also said things like, it just MAY be that it was not Wilders decision to fight this guy or that guy.

Not really how you described me, as forcing my opinions or not accepting anything, unless it comes out of my own mouth.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I agree, but want to add that Marvin didn't really take a lot of punishment in getting those miles on the clock. People talk about his fight with Hearns as "the war" but in reality, it was only one round, (rds two and three did not see much damage done to him) and Marvin didn't even take a great deal of punishment even in that really, not compared to what Gatti and Ward took. Mugabi fight was tough, no question, but Leonard had been in wars with Hearns and Duran, that were longer, and tougher. Hearns was a lot faster and seemed to have far more snap on his punches when he fought Leonard than when he fought Marvin. His legs were over-trained (as confirmed by the very honest Emanuel Stewart) and were noticeably weak, and if you have weak legs, you can't punch as hard. Incredible that Hagler was never decked though don't you think? Haters will mention Roldan, but the replay showed it was clearly not a punch. He dipped and the punch missed, but the palm of the glove caught the back of his head, and pulled him forward. He jumped straight up, and was not remotely dazed.

Not forcing my opinions on you, or anyone else. If you don't agree, you don't agree.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I agree about the Roldan "knockdown". However, Marvin had far more miles on the clock than Leonard. His journey to the top was long and draining - 50+ fights including the infamous Philly wars and the Mugabe fight would have been very draining. Basically he stood toe to toe with arguably the hardest puncher (pound for pound) at that time.

Those Philly wars, really weren't that tough. I have every available fight of his, and never saw any of those early fights as anything like wars, but I do know what you mean about more miles on the clock than Ray. He did stand toe to toe with Mugabi, but there is one small thing I need to add. Mugabi was a jnr middle really. Marvins biggest name wins were against an ex lightweight and an ex welterweight, but he was still absolutely brilliant.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

Óscar Valdez, Bob Arum Shakur Stevenson, Gilberto Ramirez and more give their scores for Hagler vs Leonard

http://www.ringnews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sugar-Ray-Leonard-vs-Marvin-Hagler.jpg

It took place on Monday, April 6, 1987 at Caesars Palace and it was promoted by Bob Arum's Top Rank®. The SuperFight: Hagler vs. Leonard, with Marvin Hagler defending his middleweight title against Sugar Ray Leonard, making a return after a three-year absence from the ring and a big question mark about his surgically-repaired eye. It was one the biggest and most successful sporting events of that era. Caesars Palace was sold out with 15,000 spectators and an estimated 400 million more watching worldwide via closed-circuit or on pay-tv. The media credentialed for fight week was close to 1,1000. It was the quintessential promotion of that time and the foundation on which mega fights are now promoted. And the result? It is as hotly debated today as it was 30 years ago when the judges' scores were read that night. Dave Moretti scored it 115-113 for Leonard. Lou Fillippo scored it 115-113 for Hagler. Jo Jo Guerra scored it 118-110 for Leonard, making him the new middleweight champion, and completing one of the greatest career comebacks in boxing .

Undefeated World Boxing Organization (WBO) world champions ÓSCAR VALDEZ, GILBERTO "Zurdo" RAMIREZ and JESSIE MAGDALENO, as well as 2016 Olympic silver medalist SHAKUR STEVENSON, are headlining an exciting world championship tripleheader, and Stevenson's pro debut, which will take place on Saturday, April 22, under the stars at StubHub Center in Carson, Calif. It will be produced and distributed live on pay-per-view. Each fighter and his respective trainer took a break from training to watch a clean tape of the fight, minus audio and graphics, and score it. Here is who they thought won.

Read more: Oscar Valdez, Shakur Stevenson, Gilberto Ramirez give their scores for Hagler vs Leonard - - Boxing News - Ring News24

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

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Richard Steeles view on this fight

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

--- Marv said that physically that was one of his easiest fights which is why he was so POed since he wasn't hurt, marked, or otherwise beat up like many of his tougher fights.

Here they are probably within the year. Marv looks great, but Ray like a ghost, but that could just be one of those poses that cameras catch in stills making people look odd.

http://brooklynfights.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Sugar-Ray-and-Marvelous-Marvin-2.jpg

And how the division has changed. Marv has as good a pair of knuckle dusters on him as any in history. Gennady is slightly in front making him appear larger than normal, but even shrunk down that 1% difference he dwarfs Marv.

http://ringsidereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GGG-MMH.jpg

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

--- Marv said that physically that was one of his easiest fights which is why he was so POed since he wasn't hurt, marked, or otherwise beat up like many of his tougher fights.

 

Here they are probably within the year. Marv looks great, but Ray like a ghost, but that could just be one of those poses that cameras catch in stills making people look odd.

 

 

http://brooklynfights.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Sugar-Ray-and-Marvelous-Marvin-2.jpg

 

 

And how the division has changed. Marv has as good a pair of knuckle dusters on him as any in history. Gennady is slightly in front making him appear larger than normal, but even shrunk down that 1% difference he dwarfs Marv.

 

 

http://ringsidereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GGG-MMH.jpg

I would agree that it was his easiest fight as far as being bust up in any way, but it wasn't his easiest in trying to find a way to win, because everything he tried, Ray would find a way to counter it. He even backed Marvin up at his own game, when they traded and Ray was trapped in a corner.

Two sides to every story, I am afraid!

I have met both recently and can tell you first hand that Ray looks much better than Marvin, even though Ray has taken drugs and Marvin has always been a clean liver.

I would also say that your admiration for Marvin and disdain for Ray has tarnished your opinion of how they look on this picture too.

Re: Hagler - Leonard 30 years on

I really need to watch this fight as unfortunately I was born in the 90s!