The Age of Manufactured Welterweights

Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather, Miguel Cotto, Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley....all started below welterweight and went on to their greatest success at 147 or just beyond.

 

It amazes me really given the strength and power each has demonstrated at-times. I'm not disparaging them but to me, having cut my teeth in the 70's it is indeed a rare thing seeing a natural junior lightweight or lightweight move up not only to win at 147 and beyond but to at-times dominate. Strangely none of this seems quite so rare these days and I believe it is because we are actually living in an era where there is more talent than is generally acknowledged.

 

Can you imagine the Miguel Cotto of last June facing Mike McCallum, Terry Norris or Gianfranco Rosi - all big junior middleweights? Can you imagine Floyd Mayweather facing the 1999 Tito Trinidad or the 2004 Oscar De La Hoya taking on the Marvin Hagler that waxed a peaking Thomas Hearns?

 

We live in a rare time.......or will this sort of thing become the norm, and if it does become the norm......why?

 

Thoughts?

Supplements?

 

Im not saying the illegal ones either its amazing the strength & power you can get off legal supplements and also the teams these guys have around them these days, strength and conditioning coaches for example were these around in previous years?

Thats a tough question and I don't pretend to know the answer. My simple logic would be 4 belts on offer rather than 2 or 3. Fighters can seemingly pick and chose the title holder they want to fight.

 

If there was only 2 belts at Welterweight then would Floyd have had to take on stiffer competition? Maybe not as he seems to call the shots with his TV backer - HBO abit like Roy Jones did.

 

I'd love to see the likes of McCrory, Curry, Breland, Starling, Brown and Honeyghan matched with the likes of the 90's fighters - Oscar, Mosley and Trinidad and the guys of today. I personally think the 80's fighters do very well indeed.

 

The JW division was quite weak in the 80's but Roberto Duran made the move up from Lightweight, so in a way its down to the fighters talents. People like Duran and Pacquiao are exceptional fighters.

Multiple weight champs are nothing new, Bob Fitzsimmons won the 160lb crown, moved up and took the Heavyweight crown, and then dropped back to 175lbs, and won the world title there.

 

Duran of course moved from lightweight up to middle winning titles.

It seems to be very common in the modern ara and it's definetely taken the shine off the likes of Leonard, Hearns and Duran who accomplished what was something special back in their day.

I think as much as anything, its just evolution - people are growing slightly bigger than they were 20 or 30 years ago. There is also the advancement of technology and therefore training methods too. This will lead to fighters losing a few % of body fat and instead gaining a few % of muscle, thus making them gain a couple of lbs to enable them to fight 1 division higher

Fighters also like going after the biggest paydays, sometimes these are not in their natural weight class.

ive never thought of that before. it is quite interesting. i suppose selective matchmaking plays a large role.

One thing I've noticed about alot of fighters these days is that when they lose a title at the weight they often don't wanna try hard to get it back. They just move up a weight and try for another belt as if that would be easier.

I'm not convinced that the talent isn't acknowledged these days.

Far too much is read into a fighters "0" nowadays though, and their winning record.

In the past, more often than not, the best fought the best eventually, and there were far more fighters with a few losses on their records at the top of every division.

When you're stepping in against top class opposition time and again, then there are always going to be fighters who find a way to beat you, and I think at times, fighters nowadays are afforded celebrity status far too prematurely before they've actually deserved it.

Think Taylor, Lacy, Berto etc etc.

These guys are or have been paid crazy amounts of money, and been built up into superstardom without being properly pushed.

The marketing and hype machine for fighters is in overdrive these days, and when you mention the fighters of today against their welterweight counterparts of the past, I'd give very few of today's fighters the edge in any contest.

The skill is definitely acknowledged, and in some cases over-egged even.

 

If you think of the best welterweights over the past few years.

Mayweather

Mosley

Cotto

Pacquiao

Williams

 

Other than Cotto and Mosley with 2 fights a piece against the other guys, very few of the potentially best matchups in the 147 lbs division have actually been made.

They are the ones who have really excelled themselves in taking the challenges, and they are the ones who have ultimately failed.

It's easy to look like a good welterweight, when you're not actually facing the other best welterweights out there.

Supplements?

 

Im not saying the illegal ones either its amazing the strength & power you can get off legal supplements and also the teams these guys have around them these days, strength and conditioning coaches for example were these around in previous years?

 

Yes, legal supplements and with today's nutritional knowledge I believe athlete's and fighters may tend to become functionally bigger. That all stated, I do believe in tipping points and that getting too big, as in the case of heavyweights. There is still something to be said for old fashioned hard work and being equipped to go hard for a full 36 minutes.

Thats a tough question and I don't pretend to know the answer. My simple logic would be 4 belts on offer rather than 2 or 3. Fighters can seemingly pick and chose the title holder they want to fight.

 

If there was only 2 belts at Welterweight then would Floyd have had to take on stiffer competition? Maybe not as he seems to call the shots with his TV backer - HBO abit like Roy Jones did.

 

I'd love to see the likes of McCrory, Curry, Breland, Starling, Brown and Honeyghan matched with the likes of the 90's fighters - Oscar, Mosley and Trinidad and the guys of today. I personally think the 80's fighters do very well indeed.

 

The JW division was quite weak in the 80's but Roberto Duran made the move up from Lightweight, so in a way its down to the fighters talents. People like Duran and Pacquiao are exceptional fighters.

 

Another great response. Yes, more belts suggests greater window of opportunity for a fighter to sweep more titles in more divisions. As for your point on Duran, I agree. Honestly we could be speaking about Duran in an enhanced light had he stopped off for a quickie junior welter title win....and such was well within his ability to accomplish had he made the move. Ditto with Mike McCallum at super middle and Shane Mosley, again at 140.

There is still something to be said for old fashioned hard work and being equipped to go hard for a full 36 minutes.

 

Pardon?!? mlol/

 

Seriously though, I think some consideration needs to be given to the state that some Heavyweights enter the ring in. Bubbery tubs of lard, boobs jiggling and fat wobbling, does not look good in the ring.

Multiple weight champs are nothing new, Bob Fitzsimmons won the 160lb crown, moved up and took the Heavyweight crown, and then dropped back to 175lbs, and won the world title there.

 

Duran of course moved from lightweight up to middle winning titles.

 

You are right, but we don't have much to look at in order to really get a sense of how good or how emaciated many of the fighters were in those days. Film is our first best method of evaluation. In those days 176lbs and a man was a heavyweight. That all stated, your point is valid, the weight jumping is nothing new.

There is still something to be said for old fashioned hard work and being equipped to go hard for a full 36 minutes.

 

Pardon?!? mlol/

 

Seriously though, I think some consideration needs to be given to the state that some Heavyweights enter the ring in. Bubbery tubs of lard, boobs jiggling and fat wobbling, does not look good in the ring.

 

Oh I agree. The tits have no place in boxing. The spare tire is a reality but it can be pared right down with hard work. Both are indicators of a guy not doing enough.

Were they naturals at those weights though? To me,someone natural at a weight cuts very little to no weight to make the weight limit.These guys have the advantages of weigh-ins over 24 hours before a fight now.That's alot of time to rehydrate the body and put on 10-15 pounds.

 

 

In todays era,Pacquiao is regarded as a small man at the current weights that he fights at due to the length of time he spent at 126 and 130.but if you look at the weight that he was coming in one fight night at,the guy was a welterweight even then.

Were they naturals at those weights though? To me,someone natural at a weight cuts very little to no weight to make the weight limit.These guys have the advantages of weigh-ins over 24 hours before a fight now.That's alot of time to rehydrate the body and put on 10-15 pounds.

 

 

In todays era,Pacquiao is regarded as a small man at the current weights that he fights at due to the length of time he spent at 126 and 130.but if you look at the weight that he was coming in one fight night at,the guy was a welterweight even then.

 

Perfect post.

 

I agree with you. Was Pacquiao really a natural junior welter who had the ability and means to dry out to 126 and show-up as a 140-pounder?

 

I once read that Tito Trinidad was always a natural middleweight that could melt (for a mere spell) to welterweight and then show up rehydrated and blow away his opposition (which if you look very closely at, weren't natural welterweights to begin with).

 

There is some level of illusion here with 24 to 36 hours between weigh-in and climbing through the ropes.

I'm not convinced that the talent isn't acknowledged these days.

Far too much is read into a fighters "0" nowadays though, and their winning record.

In the past, more often than not, the best fought the best eventually, and there were far more fighters with a few losses on their records at the top of every division.

When you're stepping in against top class opposition time and again, then there are always going to be fighters who find a way to beat you, and I think at times, fighters nowadays are afforded celebrity status far too prematurely before they've actually deserved it.

Think Taylor, Lacy, Berto etc etc.

These guys are or have been paid crazy amounts of money, and been built up into superstardom without being properly pushed.

The marketing and hype machine for fighters is in overdrive these days, and when you mention the fighters of today against their welterweight counterparts of the past, I'd give very few of today's fighters the edge in any contest.

The skill is definitely acknowledged, and in some cases over-egged even.

 

If you think of the best welterweights over the past few years.

Mayweather

Mosley

Cotto

Pacquiao

Williams

 

Other than Cotto and Mosley with 2 fights a piece against the other guys, very few of the potentially best matchups in the 147 lbs division have actually been made.

They are the ones who have really excelled themselves in taking the challenges, and they are the ones who have ultimately failed.

It's easy to look like a good welterweight, when you're not actually facing the other best welterweights out there.

 

goodp//

bravo//

Its the rBGH!

It's not the advancement in technology, not the internet, not media, it good old fashion bovine growth hormone!

I'm not convinced that the talent isn't acknowledged these days.

Far too much is read into a fighters "0" nowadays though, and their winning record.

In the past, more often than not, the best fought the best eventually, and there were far more fighters with a few losses on their records at the top of every division.

When you're stepping in against top class opposition time and again, then there are always going to be fighters who find a way to beat you, and I think at times, fighters nowadays are afforded celebrity status far too prematurely before they've actually deserved it.

Think Taylor, Lacy, Berto etc etc.

These guys are or have been paid crazy amounts of money, and been built up into superstardom without being properly pushed.

The marketing and hype machine for fighters is in overdrive these days, and when you mention the fighters of today against their welterweight counterparts of the past, I'd give very few of today's fighters the edge in any contest.

The skill is definitely acknowledged, and in some cases over-egged even.

 

If you think of the best welterweights over the past few years.

Mayweather

Mosley

Cotto

Pacquiao

Williams

 

Other than Cotto and Mosley with 2 fights a piece against the other guys, very few of the potentially best matchups in the 147 lbs division have actually been made.

They are the ones who have really excelled themselves in taking the challenges, and they are the ones who have ultimately failed.

It's easy to look like a good welterweight, when you're not actually facing the other best welterweights out there.

 

You are right. There is a mad rush to anoint greatness on some popular performers. Jeff Lacy is a great example. When he was on top and defending his title, about the time he and Calzaghe were scheduled to clash MANY fans were calling for and openly expecting him to behead Joe. They got caught up in the hype, his wild and thrilling rushes to knock foes out and his impressive physique.

Just too many games with all the divsions, the day before weigh-ins, and now the catchweight nonsense. It's not just Welterweight, it's a LOT of the divisions, but because Welterweight is one of the glamour divisions, being one of the old Eight, it makes an attractive prize and is more blatant.

I thought about this and the weighing in factor must be the reason. Before you weighed in on the day, now you have 24 hours to rehydrate.

Perfect post.

 

I agree with you. Was Pacquiao really a natural junior welter who had the ability and means to dry out to 126 and show-up as a 140-pounder?

 

I once read that Tito Trinidad was always a natural middleweight that could melt (for a mere spell) to welterweight and then show up rehydrated and blow away his opposition (which if you look very closely at, weren't natural welterweights to begin with).

 

There is some level of illusion here with 24 to 36 hours between weigh-in and climbing through the ropes.

 

 

 

Even early in his career Pacquiao was having trouble making weight for certain fights,which suggests that he was pretty big at those lighter weights that he's given so much credit for rising up from.

 

 

Trinidad was a pretty big welterweight.Nobody ever did to William Joppy what he did in his debut as that weight.Completely destroyed him.

 

 

I thought about this and the weighing in factor must be the reason. Before you weighed in on the day, now you have 24 hours to rehydrate.

 

 

I think the weigh-in is like 26-28 hours before the fight.No way do you see guys like Antonio Margarito,Paul Williams and Kermit Cintron competing as welterweights had they been around in the day when weigh-in's took place on the morning of the fight.

Weigh ins should be back to on the day of the fight. Every fight is at an unofficial catchweight otherwise.

I completely agree.So few fighters do actually fight at the natural weight anyway,so it's not like these fighters have such a great weight advantage on their opponent most of the time.

 

 

Pacquiao's a natural at 140 and 147 and it's clearly not done him any harm.